Hybrid/Mutation

[Diane]

Ignorance rearing its head here....
If the breeding of "infertile" mules is done to get good singers, what happens to all the hens in the clutch, are they fertile?

[mattymeischke]

Good question, BB.
They are sometimes kept for fosters but I believe they are often culled.

I have a goldfinch-canary mule which never seemed to sing, then I found it building a nest and accepting a cock.
She is very pretty, and she can live out her life here. I think it most unlikely she will be fertile.

[finchbreeder]

I believe the majority of Canary hybrids are infertile. So the hens are either used as fosters, to increase the numbers raised by those with soft hearts or a keanness to breed faster. Or as said by mm culled by those with a thick skin or lack or care for what they have created. Do the cocks sing better, well some do some don't, but they do sing beautifully on average.
LML

[Tiaris]

A good canary male of almost any variety would be hard to beat for song.
I am very sceptical that canary hybrids with other serinus/carduelis species would be generally infertile. After all weren't Red Factor canaries established by Red Siskin hybrid F1s crossed back to canaries to produce F2s, etc. This is one common canary hybrid with a CITES schedule 1 endangered species which must be fertile for this to have occurred. Serinus species such as Green Singers are even closer in taxonomic relationship to canaries (same genus) so presumably have a higher chance of fertile hybrids. Isn't this rational?

[Lukec]

I am sure i heard an old mate that bred mules, say that only cocks are fertile, he never had a hen mulke produce a fertile egg, but a male mule cross canary could produce the f2.

[mattymeischke]

All true, Tiaris.

A good canary male of almost any variety would be hard to beat for song.

Indeed, but my green singer mule is far better than any of my (selected for song) canaries.

I am very sceptical that canary hybrids with other serinus/carduelis species would be generally infertile

So am I, which is why I am crossing the green singer mule back to a canary. I think the infertility is often relative rather than absolute, so they may have less chicks less often with less vigour, rather than being out and out infertile.

After all weren't Red Factor canaries established by Red Siskin hybrid F1s crossed back to canaries to produce F2s, etc. This is one common canary hybrid with a CITES schedule 1 endangered species which must be fertile for this to have occurred.

True, but it is worth noting that many, many unsuccessful pairings with (presumably infertile) birds were required to kick off the F2; hence the legendary patience and persistence for which the feat is renowned.
Further, in the 20s when this was happening there was no CITES and red siskins were presumably less precarious in the wild.

Serinus species such as Green Singers are even closer in taxonomic relationship to canaries (same genus) so presumably have a higher chance of fertile hybrids. Isn't this rational?

Very rational. However, it presumes that the taxonomists have got the relationships worked out correctly. I'm not entirely confident that this is so.

[Tiaris]

I meant that Red Siskin/canary hybrids are common today & mostly intentional.
I dare say the Singing finches (serins) of African origin are very likely to be correctly classified by taxonomists as closer to canaries than are South American cardueline species (Siskins).

[TomDeGraaff]

A mule was a name commonly given to canary goldfinch hybrids. These are infertile as is the mule (horse x donkey) after which it was named.
Hybrids could be fertile from cross genus hybrids vis scaly-breasted (Trichoglossus) x musk (Glossopsitta) lorikeets.
No reason why at least some Serinus hybrids wouldn't be fertile. Quite likely to happen I suspect.
I also suspect that the criteria for separating genera in parrots are not the same as for finches therefore their genetic relatedness may also differ and hence the ability to produce fertile hybrids may alao vary.

[elferoz777]

Just need to name and shame the breeders that do it.....

Well let me risk starting a sh1tfight by naming (and shaming?) myself: my best singer canary is in a breeding cabinet with a goldfinch and an excellent white canary hen is sitting on eggs fathered by (gasp!) a canary-green singer mule.

Around the country, right now, hundreds of birdkeepers (many of them elderly European gentlemen) are actively trying to breed mules. The progeny are sought after as singers and rarely allowed to breed. It has been discussed elsewhere on the forum that it is questionable whether mules sing better than good canaries or not; in any case they are bred for this purpose. I have put my best singer to a Goldie partly to address this question.

I don't mean to dismiss the arguments against hybridisation above; I agree with most of it. I just wanted to remind y'all that there is a long tradition of producing intentional hybrids which to the best of my knowledge has not produced problems like those discussed above, and a blanket ban or vociferous campaign would affect this benign hybridisation practised so expertly by the Maltese mule masters (and less proficiently by me).

Apologies to any I have offended/upset,
mm.

Second that.

Being a young European in Australia I would like to say I understand and endorse the production of song bird mules.

In Spain my uncles done this very well and I aspire to do this to the same standard myself.

I currently have Goldfinches, siskins, green finches, canaries and soon chaffies and linnets (god willing), and mules will be on the agenda once I have nailed all of these species (maybe the the exception will be siskin hybrids).

I was mostly aiming my comment at the parrot people.

I see the issue with creating fertile hybrids as there is a risk of them getting loose and contaminating the finch world (extreme yet possible). I have seen parrot hybrids and am aware of certain ppl who sell the undesirable offspring as pures as they fetch more $$$$.


BTW how does your goldie X green singer sound?

[TomDeGraaff]

The breeding of mules etc as many Europeans have and are doing is not a great issue to me.
When I see the deliberate destruction of a genome by a small minority that I call dollar-hungry parrot farmers.
I want us to not follow that path. I suppose that is why I harp on it a bit. We are so much better than that and I sense that the big commercial bloke has never really found a way to make a living out of the finesse of finches.
When it's all said and done, when you consider a "galatiel" or a white cocky/galah cross, they are not much different or dangerous than a mule. It's a matter of perspective:
the occasional cross that is most likely sterile V the managed, coordinated injection of foreign genes into a closed population

There's no real comparison, is there?