Pale Crimson Finch "Impurities"

Black Bellied & White Bellied.
Includes Species Profile
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TomDeGraaff
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Craig52 wrote:
"Hi Tom,regarding your comment on WB bloods.Sadly i have been talking to a few guys who have been searching the two areas (Laura and Lakefield National Park)on Cape York in the last couple of years photographing birds and are finding three birds out of five are carrying grey or black in their under bellies.It looks like the BB crimsons have invaded their territory and are hybridizing to produce these birds.
I am also finding with my own birds,two pr in particular that are not related to my original strain are now throwing light grey bellied birds yet last year they produced snow white bellied birds,which leads me to the question is it genetic,diet,weather or the environment and as far as i know they haven't had BB blood in them.
Craig"

I think there are 2 separate issues here, Craig.
1. The apparent intrusion of the black-bellied (Neochmia phaeton phaeton) into the bloodlines of the white-bellied (N p evangelinae) is most concerning. Have black-bellied birds been found in evangelinae's range?
2. The greying of feathers of your young birds despite being pure. Given your friends' observations, is it possible that this part of the natural variation within the subspecies? Interested to hear from os breeders and field study birdos.
I don't think the two issues are related.
It sounds to me like this change in the shading of your young may be an environmental factor at work. Any differences in diet or environment of the young compared to last year's young? darkening or smokiness has been recorded in orangebreasts and cutthroats when kept in low light conditions.
Cheers
Tom
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Tiaris
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I know a couple of blokes who bred from wild-caught White-bellied Bloods in the early 1990s which produced some (not all) young which moulted out to have grey edges to the white area. I also know of another couple of blokes who have deliberately crossed white-bellieds with black-bellieds to "strengthen them up", which would have undoubtedly sullied the purity of the very limited captive stocks of this form. So we have at two different possible genetic causes before even looking at environmental factors.
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arthur
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Agree Tiaris . .

In the 90's the 'quality' (if that is the right word) of WB's varied from breeder to breeder. There was one breeder in the Brisbane area whose birds we used to describe as 'T-shirt white'. They were crackers.

Black bellied birds in the wild vary in colour intensity, size and number of white spots, and body size, from locality to locality.

Perhaps WB's vary in subtle ways as well . .

Genetic or environmental? . . Who knows?
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TomDeGraaff
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I wonder why the young from last season were "white" while this season's were "grey"? Genetically possible that, by chance, they were all one type last season then all the other type this season. But unlikely, I would have thought. Nonetheless, I have NO experience with these birds so I bow to the experiences/knowledge of others.

Could Vitamin D deficiency do this? Are your young birds out of the direct sunlight, Craig?
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Craig52
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Uraeginthus wrote:I wonder why the young from last season were "white" while this season's were "grey"? Genetically possible that, by chance, They were all one type last season then all the other type this season. But unlikely, I would have thought. Nonetheless, I have NO experience with these birds so I bow to the experiences/knowledge of others.

Could Vitamin D deficiency do this? Are your young birds out of the direct sunlight, Craig?
First of all,thanks for starting new topic.
I must correct myself as not all the young are light grey from those prs,as some of the cocks have snow white bellies.From those two prs i have bred 16,6 cocks and 10 hens so i can't comment on the hens but some of those hens have very white bellies compared to their siblings.

Yes Tom,they are in a 3x3mtr indoor holding aviary with two polycarbonate skylights where they can get to within 100mm of it so not direct sunlight and if any UV penetrates it's in small proportion and it's only on their backs.
Last year i placed them in an unused outdoor aviary facing North and they hung on the wire and they looked brilliant but this year i had more prs set up hence the indoor holding aviary.
But in saying all that,i do feed a very good Vitamin and Mineral powder twice a week in their sprouted/green seed which contains 200,000 IU D3,maybe it should be fed daily.
Tiaris,in last years young nearly all the young WB cocks had that grey edge to the crimson but disappears after the first moult

Yes grey crowned BB crimsons have been noticed in the WB's area of Cape York according to my source.

If i can't get rid of this problem,i might have to throw my arms up in the air and let someone else take over as at the moment i am pulling my hair out and prospective buyers will think they are cross breeds,which they are not.
Craig
ps,i will try to get some pics for comparision
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TomDeGraaff
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Craig52 wrote:First of all,thanks for starting new topic.
:thumbup:
Craig52 wrote:Last year i placed them in an unused outdoor aviary facing North and they hung on the wire and they looked brilliant but this year i had more prs set up hence the indoor holding aviary
So, did the birds TURN grey after being moved to the back aviaries?
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SamDavis
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Interesting discussion - keep going.... :clap:
Craig52 wrote:ps,i will try to get some pics for comparision
Please do :thumbup:
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Craig52
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Uraeginthus wrote:
Craig52 wrote:First of all,thanks for starting new topic.
:thumbup:
Craig52 wrote:Last year i placed them in an unused outdoor aviary facing North and they hung on the wire and they looked brilliant but this year i had more prs set up hence the indoor holding aviary
So, did the birds TURN grey after being moved to the back aviaries?
No Tom,i didn't explain that properly,the young of this years breeders.This years breeders were last years young if that makes sense,these breeders had access to direct sunlight as young.This years young are the ones in the indoor holding aviary. Cheers Craig
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finchbreeder
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in last years young nearly all the young WB cocks had that grey edge to the crimson but disappears after the first moult
I do not breed these, so purely speculation on my part. Could it just be "baby" colouring lingering? If these are the fathers of this years young, they could be passing this trait on.
LML
LML
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arthur
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http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/s ... n_id=64443

Posted without comment . .

Bit of bedtime reading for those interested
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