What Colour am I ?

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garyh
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So im taking it this just your opinion and not a written fact,i know that terry martin named the mutation , probably being one of the top 10 genetics experts in the world,happy to read anything that you can put forward ,so will stick to calling them their correct name for the time being,cheers garyh
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ZODIAC
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Thankyou all for your feedback. I will have to identify my parents which are split and also any split offspring.
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Alf63
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Many different mutations share the same mode of inheritance whether it is, autosomal recessive, sexlinked recessive, dominant etc. Having the same inheritance is only one factor in the various genetic changes that occur in a mutant colour. Blue is a recessive mutation it doesn't make it a recessive pied.
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finchbreeder
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Of course not. Blue is blue. Yellow (like in the European yellow) is yellow. Pied is a bird that has white or yellow feathers where it would normally have blue or green feathers. Just like the Australian Yellow has.
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Craig52
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I agree Alf, but i also believe the Australian Yellow has changed in colour distribution on the body than the original bird. The original bird looked very similar to a DF Euro yellow WB but has a green patch in the back from the shoulder down to the middle back then the yellow started and very uniformed with a unique WB breast unrelated to the normal/regular WB
Today many of the birds look like pieds with random yellow/white patches all over the body including the face and chest being half white and half purple/mauve.
Imo, there is Euro yellow pollution in these patchy birds which has given the birds a more pied looking effect rather than the uniformed look of the original AY. Many new comers to finch breeding don't know or don't care that mutations that look very similar to each other are different mutations so the off spring carry double mutations and look very different to the norm.
Social media finch group photo's of so called AY's are very different to the original AY and DO look more like pieds. One of our members, Misso has these striking looking birds and so have many other breeders and imo we can start calling them pieds.
Then again, is the AY graduating as breeding goes on into a very different looking bird in its own right :silent:
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Craig52
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56337227_2252287111481325_2021462113465139200_n.jpg
Not a good one but just an example of what breeders are calling AY's out of AY parents. There are better examples of these birds with much better defined pied plumage.
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Tiaris
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When AY was a new mutation, such birds as that one above were generally culled out with a more even yellow being regarded as better quality AYs. These were regarded similarly to colour appearing on the breast of white-breasted mutation birds which was generally regarded as a fault (inferior) trait and hence culled. The heavy marking of dark plumage has been selected for in some collections lately especially by those combining AY with the Blue mutation, however the darker plumage moults out in successive moults as the bird matures and older AYs generally have little or no flecking irrespective of their colour at first moult. Many people don't realise this fact before obtaining AYs and may be very disappointed when their expensive AY Blues or dark marked AY birds moult into successively paler unmarked plumage as they mature ultimately to a clean yellow back.
Most natural features and many captive-established colour mutations are genetically variable and can be standardised with consistent selection of breeding stock one way or another. I don't believe that the variation in traits in the AY mutation means that it is actually pied any more than the variation in head colour clarity of hen YH & RH Gouldians would deem them to be pied head birds nor chest colour intensity variation, etc, etc. Just variable traits as per many others. AY is a unique autosomal recessive mutation very distinct from a pied. If a true pied Gouldian mutation were established it would have splashes of clear yellow contrasting starkly with adjoining bright colours as per normal Gouldian colouration IMO - AY does not do this.
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garyh
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Spoke to Don Crawford,when he first bred the ay the young came out with a very variegated body but after two years these birds had lost nearly all variegation,he also totally agrees with Tiaris,cheers garyh
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finchbreeder
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Very informative discussion re the early development of the AY, and observation thereof. We all agree that the genetic inheritance is the same in AY and recessive pied. I have seen a number of types of pieds where the amount of pieding reduces over time (only in lightly marked birds but)
"AY is a unique autosomal recessive mutation very distinct from a pied. If a true pied Gouldian mutation were established it would have splashes of clear yellow contrasting starkly with adjoining bright colours as per normal Gouldian colouration IMO - AY does not do this."
Thanks for that T. a point I had not considered. And what I had asked for in the beginning. Someone to tell me what differed in the inheritance of a AY and a recessive pied. I have never been afraid to be wrong. But I expect people to prove it not just say some expert says so. Too many experts have been proven wrong for that to be enough for me.
Yes I'm stubborn - but I appreciate every thing all of you have put into this discussion - it makes us all more aware of the finer points we may not have considered. Never be afraid to challenge or concede. It makes us better in the long run.
Sorry for hocking your post Zodiac, but I think you will agree it has been very informative.
Currently have a hen bird that looks like a normal BH PB GB from the back, but the underwings are striped with yellow. She is out of a split blue hen BH PB GB and a Possible split blue RH PB GB, neither had a yellow or white feather anywhere.
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finchbreeder
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"striking looking birds and so have many other breeders and imo we can start calling them pieds."
The Australian yellows I know - I am pleased to say, look more like pieds and the picture shown - than they do like Euro Yellows with a white chest. So while I agree with the naming of them, I still consider them a recessive pied.
"If a true pied Gouldian mutation were established it would have splashes of clear yellow contrasting starkly with adjoining bright colours as per normal Gouldian colouration IMO"
But because the Gouldian is mixed colours - green, purple and yellow - the green would have yellow feathers, the purple being blue ground would go white, and the black also being blue ground would have white - just like the bird in the above picture. And could very well be why some have trouble fixing the white breast.
More to think about in the interests of thought and consideration.
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