Red-eared firetail dramas

Includes Species Profile.
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mattymeischke
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Posts: 862
Joined: 25 Jul 2011, 20:25
Location: Southern Tablelands of NSW

Hello all.

I got a pair of REFs from a bloke in WA last year.
They went down while they were in quarantine (1.6 x 3.2 x 2.0m aviary, heavily brushed) and made a nest.
They were taking wintergrass seed and green leafy veg, but no insect food, and they gave up the nest after about four weeks.
The second nest was a few months later; they laid eggs this time.
In this time, I found they would take fly pupae (but never maggots), ant pupae (from the defenders of termite mounds, about 3x12mm so quite big), and temite eggs (the fine white granular stuff you sometimes find deep inside the mound).
Unfortunately, and as predicted by Mr. Smeelie among others, the cock bird dropped dead for no good reason just when everything was going well.

It took some time to source a replacement cockbird. Thanks to GaryMc from Kalgoorlie, I got one from a man in the Hunter; DNA-sexed, young bird, lost his hen so had this spare.
Spent some time preparing the new aviary, had the new bird (with it's escort of redbrows) in a holding aviary with the old hen.
Went to move them to their new home, caught my old hen but couldn't find the new bird.
Found him dead in a corner.

Post-mortem attended promptly showed:
Small linear scab up belly, distended abdomen.
- possibly injured in handling?
Scruffed up head and neck feathers
- possibly bashed by the other one?
But most surprisingly, it showed an ovary.
I checked the DNA cert: numbered metal band matching the band on the dead bird.

Now, I have had one case before when the DNA result did not match the sex of the bird (a diamond firetail who developed a plum-coloured beak, did the grass dance and has since fathered chicks). I don't think the seller knew the DNA result was wrong, as he had had it in with a hen. In fact, given my experiences with REFs to date it seems that the hens are especially aggressive to other hens. I think it is possible that his original hen was killed by this 'cock', then when I put 'him' in with my hen he had a hard time.

So, add my name to the list of hearts broken by the red-eared firetail. On the bright side, I didn't waste a year wondering why they wouldn't go down...

If anyone knows of a spare cockbird out there, or knows someone looking for a hen (DNA certified, for what it's worth), please let me know by PM.
Avid amateur aviculturalist; I keep mostly australian and foreign finches.
The art is long, the life so short; the critical moment is fleeting and experience can be misleading, crisis is difficult....... (Hippocrates)
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SamDavis
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Joined: 03 Jan 2011, 14:01
Location: Douglas Park NSW

Hi Matty,

was great to run into you last week at the Canberra Finch Club sale. I did speak to Mick G. about a possible replacement/swap of your REF but he too is pretty much over them so doesn't want to swap or buy more. I intend to give them a go once I get my new bank of specialist aviaries up and running but it sounds like I'm in for some hard ache.

The contradictory DNA results are concerning and may well explain some non-breeding pairs of other species. I would be interested to hear of evidence with regard to whether this is REF (or rare species) related or a more general problem.

Regards,
Sam
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firetail555
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Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 13:24
Location: Botanic ridge Vic

I too have had a number of wrong DNA tests. The tester I use now is MDS and I do the blood sample system (just a little prick on the side of the toe gives enough blood) and I have not had any wrong from this system
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mattymeischke
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Joined: 25 Jul 2011, 20:25
Location: Southern Tablelands of NSW

Thanks for your thoughts.
Sam, out of maybe fifty tests I've had done, only that Diamond cock that DNAed female and the REF 'cock' with an ovary came back 'wrong', at least that I know of. It has got me thinking about a few others, though....
That makes an accuracy of about 96%, which is pretty good, really. I suppose that it is just a reminder that DNA is good but not perfect. Perhaps if the behaviour of the birds caused doubt about the DNA result, repeat testing may give you an idea if the first test may have been wrong.


The seller used a different lab to me, I usually use MDS but have mostly used feathers (seemed kinder). I think there is more room for error with feathers, on reflection; DNA methods are notoriously prone to contamination. It's reassuring to hear other people have had 'wrong' results too.
Avid amateur aviculturalist; I keep mostly australian and foreign finches.
The art is long, the life so short; the critical moment is fleeting and experience can be misleading, crisis is difficult....... (Hippocrates)
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finchbreeder
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Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:00
Location: Midwest of West. Aust. Coast
Location: Midwest of West.Aust.Coast

Any chance the wrongly sexed birds could be hemaphrodites (spelling?) Or maybe they are just heavy on the oposite sex hormones. Like some human athletes have been.
LML
LML
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GregH
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Location: Chapel Hill, Brisbane Qld

It's not out of the question that the bird was not mis-identifed if it has the characteristics of both sexes; because it is a gynandromorph. These chimeric birds are very obvious in sexually dimorphic species like Gouldians but would be invisible amongst monomorphic species like your Red-eared Fire-tail. As a Chimera it is a mixture of cells from what might have been two individual blastodiscs that fused very early during embryonic development and if the two individuals were different sexes it forms a gynandromorph. While there not enough room in an egg for two chicks to come to term, they can if they form a single embryo. The captive population of REF is still quite small and probably inbred so that may increase the odds of producing this type of oddity. I'm sure the company that did the DNA testing has adequate protocols to ensure the risk of contamination is negligible so they can't be held responsible for a rare condition that gives different results depending on the position of the body the sample was taken from. To overcome this you could take samples from all over the body but it would be expensive and stressful for the bird. Your "hen" may be the problem and not the two cocks that died. Maybe she's just not the marrying type and you are still in the market for a pair rather than a replacement cock. If you do get another cock remember one death is a shame, two is a coincidence and three would be a conspiracy.
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finchbreeder
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That's the ones I was thinking of. Thanks Greg for explaining it better. :thumbup:
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mattymeischke
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Joined: 25 Jul 2011, 20:25
Location: Southern Tablelands of NSW

It is possible that there is a gynandromorph in the mix, but an error seems far more likely to me.
DNA technologies are exquisitely sensitive; this increases the chance of error greatly, as the most minute contamination can cause false positives.
My current hen may be the problem, but as she has built, laid eggs and sat, I am happy to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Time will tell if I find a buyer for the hen or a seller of a cockbird...
Avid amateur aviculturalist; I keep mostly australian and foreign finches.
The art is long, the life so short; the critical moment is fleeting and experience can be misleading, crisis is difficult....... (Hippocrates)
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BrettB
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Joined: 13 Jun 2012, 23:28
Location: Perth

because it is a gynandromorph
These certainly occur, but there are more likely explanations.

Recent talk by the biochemist that runs one of Perth's DNA testing labs cited labeling errors as by far the most common cause of mistakes.
He also suggested that with less common bird species, minor variation in the patterns between species can make interpretation of the results more difficult.
Distant third was gynandromorphism, which with feather sampling gave different results depending on which side of the bird they were taken from.

Cheers
Brett
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are ." Anais Nin
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