Mutations

An area to discuss new and established colour mutations.
alvin

Tiarus - Shane`s pic is a DF Cock, If it were SF it would be washed out green on the back due to the purple breast colour. If that bird was white breasted without seeing under the beak, then it will be a SF due to the bluey grey band around the head.
Craig - All Cocks are either DF or SF Including all the colours, green, yellow, blue, sex linked or recessive birds

Those 2 birds I posted are out of the same nest, I am also a bit confused because the parent cock is a DF pastel blue paired to a euro yellow hen. Both are purple breasted. there were other green back cocks there, all purple breasts which if any one was involved will produce purple breasted single factor cocks.
STUART WHITING
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Jeeez there's a fair few posts on this mutation lark today, to be perfectly honest you've all completely lost and baffled me with all this mutation and genetic talk :crazy:

God I'm narf glad that I only specialise in " normals " :lol:

I know exactly what I'm looking at with a good quality normal :D
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Tiaris
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I know that Shane's was a DF. My point is that DF does produce a blue collar as can be seen in Shane's pic of his DF RH bird. Hanabi - its does produce the blue collar in purple-breasted birds as Shane's pic shows - you can't put a pic of a WB bird to show it doesn't have blue as WB dilutes the euro YB colour completely.
If the father of this bird is a DF pastel Blue (ie DF euro yellow combined with blue) and the mother is euro YB then all young cocks would be DF euro YB & hens YB. Alvin, by DF pastel blue do you mean silver? I thought a pastel blue was SF euro yellow combined with euro yellow & a DF pastel blue was a silver.
alvin

Stuart this is the exciting part about mutations.
Tiaris - Blue Cock - DF Blue Cock, Pastel Blue Cock - Silver Cock (DF), All have a bands around the head, white, Blue as found on normals, dark grey found on SF pastel green. The DF and SF purple breast in the euro yellow, both have the blue bands around the head but mine is much lighter. There are no comments on the white breast being DF or SF. These are either both DF or both SF cocks.
According to the mating they should both be DF cocks. I think they look more like SF cocks. I think maybe the lilac and white breast colours have an effect on the colour of this ring around the head and under the beak in the euro yellow. ( personal opinion) This is the first lilac breast cock I have ever bred so I can`t comment to much on them. The DF euro yellow white breast looks a lot different to this one.
Last edited by alvin on 08 Dec 2017, 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Tiaris
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I agree with all you've said there. That's why I kept asking to confirm the parents' genotype. DF cock to SF hen should theoretically produce only DF in male progeny but as you say they look SF (or at least the WB one does to me). The effect of lilac must be highly variable too as that is neither typical of SF or DF & the degree of paleness in the breast in lilacs is highly variable from the "dirty white" discussed elsewhere (& shown in hanabi's recent pic) to this bird at the darker end of the spectrum.
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finchbreeder
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I'm moderately competent with genetics and my head is spinning reading this. The use of pics to ilistrate is a great help to those trying to understand, thank to H for that.
LML
LML
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hanabi
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alvin wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 16:36 All purple breasts, DF/PB/GB paired to a yellow back hen will only produce Pastel green cocks (SF)
Yes that is true if the purple breast in question is purple+purple (in your terminology, DF purple; perhaps that is what you meant by "DF/PB"?). But if it is either purple split lilac or purple split white, and paired to a Euro yellow hen (who is also purple split lilac or white), you will indeed sometimes get SF Euro yellow cocks, just as the image of your cocks show, because it is possible to produce lilac or white-breasted offspring with those splits.
Both parents are PB.
And yet they produced both a white breasted (so white + white) cock and a lilac breasted ( so lilac + white) cock. Thus I can't see any possibility that your DF pastel blue cock parent is the true parent. No matter what the breast splits are for the cock and hen parent (either purple/lilac or purple/white), you can't simultaneously get both white breasted and lilac breasted offspring. If you assume both parents are purple/lilac you will get purple and lilac breasted offspring (no white breasts). If both parents are purple/white you will get purple and white offspring (no lilac). If one is P/L and the other P/W you will only get purple or lilac breasts (no white breasts). Anyone disagree with this? So to me at least it would appear your hen had a clandestine rendezvous with one of your green back cocks in the same aviary :shifty:
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hanabi
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Tiaris wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 06:06 Hanabi - its does produce the blue collar in purple-breasted birds as Shane's pic shows - you can't put a pic of a WB bird to show it doesn't have blue as WB dilutes the euro YB colour completely.
Yes apologies Tiaris, I should have taken the time to find and read Shane's post. I assumed his cock was a white-breasted bird :?. I have to admit I did not realise a purple-breasted DF Euro yellow cock can have a blue collar and a lighter yellow back. We see so few of that combination over here because the white breast + yellow back combination is so popular.
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hanabi
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Hello Craig
Craig52 wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 19:51 Hanabi, imo your SFYB yellow head is not a lilac breast it is a dirty WB bird. The true meaning of lilac is both cock and hens breasts are the same colour, lilac. Alvins bird is lilac same colour as a normal coloured hen.
Craig

Ahh the lilac vs dirty white debate :) I only know what I have read on this site and other forums/websites, plus a little anecdotal evidence from my own recent experience. For Euro yellow backs I agree with Tiaris's comment: the intensity of lilac is highly variable, from very faint, almost white, to more pronounced. For green backs it is also variable but much darker than yellow-back lilac. Also, I suspect the "dirty white" gene is actually a fainter example of lilac or is perhaps related to it in some way.

As an example of Euro yellow-back lilac, this year I wanted to produce some lilac-breasted birds as they are rare over here. I purchased two lilac-breasted cocks from a veteran Gouldian breeder, seen below. You would call the yellow backs "dirty white", not lilac, correct? So I paired the two yellow-backs to two white-breasted Euro yellow hens, seen below. I.e., in the cage there were no purple breasts and no green backs (well, one cock is a SF yellow so he has one green gene).

As you can see from the offspring image below (I'm not showing any of the white-breasted offspring), although they are still going through moult, both have unmistakably lilac breasts, and both breasts are a darker lilac than their cock parents. In fact the cock on the right has a near-purple breast. It would also appear at least one of my cocks is split to black head.

I do have a couple of other unrelated Goulds with "dirty white" breasts (indeed, closer to a faint brown hue than a faint lilac hue) that I am currently working with, so it will be interesting to see what they produce when paired to white-breasted mates.
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alvin

The parents of theses birds are DF pastel Blue cock ( father of both cocks below) and a euro yellow hen, I have breed at least 60 SF cocks in the past three years from 3 DF pastel Blue cocks paired to green back hens and green back cocks to yellow hens, all purple breasted, only 1 DF pastel Blue cock was paired to a OH/GB/WB hen 2016 ( pic from this pair, purple breast split white). These 2 birds do not have the same back colour as one is from a green back hen and the other a yellow back hen. I selective breed and know exactly what I have in my aviaries and where they come from. I spoke with someone this morning and he asked me what I thought about breast colours being split for white, lilac and purple as he was chatting with guys from Europe on that subject, This is a perfect example, Both parents purple breasted, sons are lilac and white.
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