Too Domesticated?

[Mr Tino]

Hi Tiaris I totally agree in your saying,I can't discuss it on there mate.

Cheer from Mr Tino

[Craig52]

I really do not believe that a parrot finch hybridized to get the red head,the gouldian finch is the only genesis or distant related to, to inhabit desert like conditions where all the parrot finches inhabit high humidity rain forests.
They may just have appeared or imo mutated.
Craig

Maybe so Craig, but also I think a hybrid is a distinct possibility though (as is a mutation) as: Australia's vegetation/climate has only recently in ecological terms become more arid at the same time that New Guinea & other polynesian islands have become more separate from Australia's landmass, the red head is dominant so an original fertile hybrid would pass it on dominantly when repeatedly outcrossed to other Gouldians, Gouldians are definitely loosely related to parrotfinches, & just look at the red face mask & surrounding black collar in turn surrounded by a pale blue suffusion on Peale's PF for a remarkable example of similarity to a RH Gouldian in the head area. Just keeping an open mind on something which is logically plausible.

You never know Tiaris but i still can't fathom that. Another example of different colouring that comes to mind is the Pintailed Nonpareil,it comes in red or yellow bellied that breeds true to colour but sometimes you get both red and yellow bellied birds in the same nest. I believe they once thought the red bellied birds were cocks and the yellow bellies were hens,i don't know if i am speaking out of the proverbial hole in my..... but i can remember reading this some where but if it is true the same could be with gouldian head colours.
Are we getting off topic,i can move this if you want. Craig

[Tiaris]

I'm not saying that is the most likely reason for the different head colour, just that it is one of several possible equally plausible reasons for a different form to appear/mutate/evolve or be introduced to a species. Sure there are different variants & subspecies in many many species & they originally come about by more means than just one.
Is it really that hard or illogical to picture the possibility of a former or vagrant Peales PF-like ancestor possibly inhabiting part of a much more lush tropical Northern Australia, however brief, before regular burning by man in evolutionarily recent times altered the vegetation & hence climate toward what it is today? The Peales PF has not only the red head, black collar & surrounding blue suffusion in broadly the same configuration as a RH Gouldian but even the dark throat patch in exactly the same shape & position. This (to me at least being a believer of evolutionary theory) makes the possibility of two species in "virtually" the same genus with such similar plumage features distinctly possible to have shared a common ancestor at some point in their evolution.

[E Orix]

I am pretty sure their DNA profiles dispute the possibility of a parrot finch hybrid.

[SamDavis]

I am pretty sure their DNA profiles dispute the possibility of a parrot finch hybrid.

I would have thought fertile hybrids unlikely too, however the following article by Dr Terry Martin includes significant examples to the contrary. In particular scroll down to the end of page 3 onwards.
http://gfinches2.com/lutino_and_albinis ... dians_2013
Given these fertile hybrids it would seem reasonable to assume a relatively recent (in evolutionary terms) common ancestor and to suspect hybrids in ancestral mixed or adjacent wild populations.

Comparing Gouldian DNA with that of various parrot finch species would be a good project for a PhD student. I'll mention the idea to a few academics. I wonder if the dominance (in a behavioural sense) of RH birds over BHs described by Dr Sarah Pryke has been passed down from a (possible) parrot finch ancestor?

[Tiaris]

Another (real & known) example to illustrate this possibility is the Red-faced Pytilia. This colour form is the direct result of the intersection of the natural ranges of the Yellow-winged Pytilia and the Aurora. Their hybrids produce a red-faced & red-winged form as the red-face from the Yellow-winged Pytilia is a dominant trait and the red wing from the Aurora is also dominant. Their close genetic relationship results in the hybrids being fertile.
With the possibility of a Gouldian/PF hybrid, remember we may be talking many thousands of generations ago where both Gouldians, Parrotfinches & whatever possible common ancestor may have been far more closely related to one another and therefore far more likely to produce fertile hybrids. Obviously genetic DNA profiles would show very similar DNA today between head colour forms if there have been many thousands of outcrosses back to other Gouldians over a very long time.
I'm not sure that DNA profiles using today's technology are even capable of determining the specific means by which different forms within species originally arise let alone have them suggest or dispute such possibilities without being specifically tested for.

[Craig52]

Wow Sam, you just don't know what is going on in the world of gouldian finches,thanks for that link. I do know that Mike Fidler was hybridising BF and RF parrot finches with gouldians a few years back for their scientific studies.
Tiaris has got a legitimate understanding of how head colours may have come about with gouldians with the peales parrot finches theory.
It's a pity that site cannot be translated and i hope Australian breeders don't go down the track to produce lutino gouldians out of lutino BFPF but i suppose we have seeded their brains now and the cocktail will continue to catch up with the rest of the World. Craig