Natural Hybrids

For questions about any species that doesn't have it's own area and for general information on foreign birds.
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GregH
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Not that I'm advoacating it but sometimes we get obsessed about hybrids since they lack "purity" and are "unnatural" but nature doesn't know anything about this. I was scanning some birds sites whien I came across a picture of a redheaded X cut-throat finch taken in the wild at http://www.birdinfo.co.za/landbirds/34_ ... _finch.htm Image.
There is nothing unnatural about such things and in the population described not even unusual. In Australia with these birds if it ever got down to the last ones then you're better to create hybrids where at least there is a chance of containing the F1s and crossing and selecting within the hybrid population to recreate something that approximates the original. I think that's what's happened to the Javan munia in Australia since the ones there doesn't look identical to the wild ones here on Luzon (Philippines).
Last edited by GregH on 15 Dec 2010, 09:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Buzzard-1
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Interesting. I have been chasing pure Abbadeen's (Red headed) for years and began to think there's only X's in Aus then I got a phone call from a bloke and he and some others have a line of pure's but only swap between themselves.
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finchbreeder
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Think you could be right there Greg. :thumbup: If at all possible breed pure. :clap: But if the alternative is let them die out? :thumbdown: I think I would be trying the hybridizing and try and re-draw the seperate types when suffiecient stock is available. :crazy: Remembering not to be too hasty, cause someone might have something stached away. :D
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dano_68
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Natural Hybrids occur in nature all the time. In fact many Australian Grass Finches cross very regularly. EG. Longtails & Blackthroats – Maked & White-eared Masked, Double bars & Zebra Finches etc. However many do not survive to become fertile breeders, and because of the relatively large and diverse gene pools in the wild these hybrid are quickly absorbed back into the main species.

In aviculture the opposite can be said. Because of a small gene pool of very limited species and individuals every hybrid in captivity is one step close to losing a species all together.

Whilst I understand the argument of deliberately crossing species to save a species I do not condone it, nor agree with it. A good example is the Blue-Breasted Cordon Bleu. When it was realised that this species was on the way out many breeders started crossing BBCB cockbirds with Red-Cheeked CB hens. So what happened? Well, the BBCB died out! It is now extinct in Australia and what was left was a lot of hybrid hens that are now passed off as Red-Cheecked CB hens. So all this did was sully the existing gene pool of RCCB and did nothing to stop the decline in BBCB.

This same lunacy is going on right now with Redheaded Finches (Aberdeens) and Cut-throats, with Blue Caps and RCCB hens and Red-Faced Pytilia and Aurora hens. So like it or not we are more than likely to lose all 3 species and all we will have to show for it is a mixed and muddied gene pool of those species that remain.

Rather than trying to hybridised species to save them, why don’t breeders join forces and perfect their husbandry skills. This is the only way we even have a chance of saving a species.

Again, a good example of this is the work Ray & Wendy Lowe did with Mike Fidler in respect to Peter’s Twinspots. This team work tireless, observing, swapping and finally breeding these finches. They did not stop until they “cracked” the puzzle of keeping and breeding Peter’s Twinspots. The Lowes now have all of the original stock (Mike gave all his birds to them as they were more successful) and now the Lowes are breeding these birds in good numbers, and selling them at HALF PRICE – just to try and make them more available to more breeders. Even at half price they are still $1500. This is because it was thought that only serious and dedicated breeders would buy them at this price and therefore have a better chance of breeding them – rather than just “keeping” them.

This may be hard for some of you to understand, but I would rather lose a species than deliberately hybridise it. Let’s face it, you are not saving it anyway, you are creating a new hybrid sub-species. I would like to think that for every species we lose it may inspire breeders to take it all more serious and tighten up their finch breeding skills! We have seen this in Germany, the UK and New Zealand. As soon as live imports from wild birds were banned they had 2 options – save what they had left or go into budgies! Luckily most decided to hone their breeding skills and now things are looking up for them.

So what I am trying to say is – hybrids in nature are no big deal and will always happen, but hybrids in captivity can NEVER be justified in my opinion. :worry:
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jusdeb
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Agreed totally Dano however it comes down to distance , time and $$$$ again and therefore its easier to create hybrids than to perfect the pure species and as said its not preserving the pures its only creating new hybrids ...band aid solutions not fix it solutions .
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Fincho162
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Wouldn't be too harsh re the question of hybrids if I were you guys............without deliberate hybridisation it is extremely doubtful whether we'd even still have Yellow wing pytilias and that would be a huge tragedy. It wasn't that long ago that they were huge money.....far, far greater than their current price.
OK, you pay the price with the odd aurora that pops out every now and again but these too are great for strengthening the blood of pure auroras as some have found out - not a "useless hybrid" as many thought at all but the real deal.
Far better that than consigning yet another exotic species to the avicultural scrap heap.
Also outside of Oz hardly anyone has ever heard of a red head red wing pytilia.......why would that be!!!!!!!

Sure sterile crosses like red face X blue face parrotfinches are a watse of time but..............there are a lot of us that wish a few people had crossed grey and green singers so that some could work on the re-synthesis of the grey singer.............once a bloodline is completely gone from finches here they are gone forever........while there is a viable bloodline (albeit hybridised) about there is always hope/a chance that someone can work with it to re-invent the pure strain.
I wish we could all be purists and have pure species but given our laws and regulations re imports that is not always possible...................

I'm also talking about 'real' breeders here and not those seeking to 'fool and beguile' with hybrids for $$$$ as in the bad old days of Tri-colour X blueface being sold as pure Tri-colours!!!!!

Things are never black and white always those damn shades of grey with finches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Myzomela
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Hi Greg,

Any chance you could post some photos of the Javan Munias you see in the wild, so we can compare them with what you've got?

They may just be a different subspecies also since you're in the Phillipines.

Also Re Aberdeens. I saw some of these last supposedly pure Aberdeens recently....if that's the best we've got, I fear it's already too late!
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jusdeb
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This is one of those topics that brings out the passion in birdkeepers ...right up there with pellets , wing clipping and line breeding ...thank goodness we all think different that way at least some people get it right . :thumbup: :D
Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue.
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GregH
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Hi Myzomela. I have a feeling I may not have any Javans at the moment so you may be forcing me to acquire some more illegal birds! I still haven't had any luck with my munias. Even a hybrid would satisfy me to start off with. The only munias bred here are societies but I just don't like them. Will see what I can do about at least a picture/

GregH
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Myzomela
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Thanks Greg,

Look forward to whatever you can come up with.
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