Hybrids

[Diane]

I thought I would start a new topic here and repost some of the relevant comments here.

Definitely separate and made sure the birds were pure bloods. I also collect orchids and do not understand the desire to hybridise. Oh well, each to their own.
Regards
Clawd

People hybridize because they don't understand the consequences to the stock in Australia or they don't care. I hate it when I see crosses in pet shops. It happens all too often. Experienced breeders and pet shops should make it well known that crossed birds are no excepted.

The problem is MUCH WORSE in parrots.
The desire to introduce new colour mutations into different species is the reason for this.
It is illegal to deliberately hybridise native species in some states eg Victoria.
However, in New South Wales it is rife- even promoted.
The proponents clain that once they are 31/32 pure then they are considered pure- says who???
They will always contain genes from the other species and so will NEVER be pure.
The lines become a little blurred when species are very closely related- we really need extensive genetic fingerprinting to sort this out.
My real beef is not so much in the development of the new mutation, but lies with intermediate birds polluting the pure gene pool.
ie hybrids being passed off as normals- just look at the lovebirds as an example.

There is a breeder who claims to have an extensive collection of Alexandrine parrot mutations. When you look at these birds they all have small heads and body size and variable wing striping- in other words they are nothing more than ringneck hybrids. Why bother??

No wonder the authorities never take aviculture seriously- seems we are too busy breeding mutations into everything we own, or else hybridising them- hardly the stuff of conservation is it!!!

I acknowledge the right for everyone to do as they like. But we need to be very careful about also keeping pure, normal lines going.

The top breeders of mutations always have a good, healthy strain of normal birds for outcrossing. We need to ensure that we keep good records of what we breed and hopefully people we buy from do the same. The problem is when birds are sold as a group to dealers or at bird sales that this information may not be passed on- or the buyers are inexperienced and don't know what they should be asking.

So let's all of us try to take on this responsibility and at least try to ensure that we inform buyers of what exactly we are selling them.

Then we can all enjoy aviculture whichever way we chose to practice it- and maintain our integrity to boot!
I'll get off my soapbox now!!!!

Do you think aviculture might need a body similar to the Kennel Clubs before things can get in any way straightened out?

Not that I think any Kennel Club in the world or any other animal husbandry institution isnt without its own problems.

The parts Im referring to is the central point where pedigrees of birds can be registered and change of owners recorded. The nomenclature sorted being sorted out would be a great start.

What was that?........I can hear the howls of protest already!

In some ways I would be howling too. I for one do not like giving any institution money, I wont even keep birds that need registering because I dont want to pay out money for nothing.
I know I wouldnt like the $$$ involved in this, however if we intend bird keeping to be taken seriously its something that needs to be considered.
If you think of the names people who keep/watch birds are called, twitchers its not very respectful is it? You dont hear of people breeding dogs or cats having names like that.

Just going to get my armour now....figure I might need it

[jusdeb]

Yes mutation breeders can go too far . Im all for colour mutations provided pure blood is thrown into the mix every now and then and that size isnt sacrificed for colour .
As for hybrids WHY ...I just dont get it . Im actually very annoyed with some acquaintances at the moment because they are trying to breed a Galah x Quarrion . Me being me made the point of " how many Quarrion will die or be injured in this little experiment " .
Mother nature has been out smarted in regards to Hybrids , she has managed to make a lot of hybrids " mules " and thus sterile, but breeders just get around these things in order to gain $$$$$.
As for Kennel Clubs , well they only know what they are told . They cant regulate what they dont know .

[Diane]

As for Kennel Clubs , well they only know what they are told . They cant regulate what they dont know .

Totally agree.
I have heard of breeders using one stud dog in reality but naming another on the pedigree and also laying claim to enormous litters, in reality two litters, but they know they would get more for the pups of a certain sire or dam. I would hope that these type of breeders are in the minority.
Even the strongest institution is never going to change people like that.
I cant see it ever happening really. Australia is in some ways a divided country, with different rules and regulations depending on which state you live, so that in itself would require a state based institutions just to be able to deal with the different requirements at state government level. Then you would need a Federal institution..... goodness more I think about it the worse it gets.
Who brought this idea up?
Still, it gets people thinking.

[bleeding green]

Part of the reason I began my search for a decent breeding records software package was that I was thinking of making up a pedigree certifcate each of my birds (parrots) , same as you get with a dog. I figure by passing this on to potential buyers it may cause them to stop and think about the importance of a bird's ancestary before they attempt to pollute any futre lines either intentionly or unintentionly.

[Diane]

I do that for buyers with the pedigree records that can be printed out from ikhoms site.

[bleeding green]

And here I was thinking I was entering uncharted waters for birds. Good stuff Di, if everyone does this it will help I think.
Before I knew any better I was non plussed about have differant species of lovebirds in the same flight and had a 'what ever happens, happens' attitude. But at the same time they would be no way in hell I'd buy a mix breed dog.
Getting the message out there has to start from the breeders.
There is a seller on petlink trying to sell crimson bellied conure males that are paired up to hens which are half green cheek. I'm glad he hasn;t sold them yet.

[Myzomela]

Well done to those printing pedigrees of birds they sell. You are to be highly commended!

There is a seller on petlink trying to sell crimson bellied conure males that are paired up to hens which are half green cheek.

- Just Bl*#@y brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!WHYYYYY????????????

[dano_68]

You should keep in mind that there is probably no pure strains of any of our foreign finches, especially the Africans. Most have been crossed intentionally or accidentally with sub species and closely allied species. 2 very good examples are Africa Fire Finches x Red-Billed Fire finch - what most people call "Ruddies" now and Red-cheeked Cordon Bleus x Blue Breasted Cordon Bleus x Blue Capped Cordon Bleus (no blue breasted left now). Others that spring to mind are Cut-throat X Red Headed Finch (Aberdeen); St Hellenas x Senegal Finches x Black Rumped Waxbills; Little Green Singers x Large Green Singers (no largies left now) x Grey Singing Finch; most Lonchuras and munias...the list goes on...

So a Pedigree is not much good because unless you had wild trapped birds from Africa you can never prove they are pedigree. A note in point, 2 QFS Finch News ago a very well known and long term Gouldian breeder placed an add offering a public apology. After 10 years of breeding "pure" strain, head colour to head colour NORMAL Gouldians, he had several customers this year tell him that birds they bought from him last year had breed white breasted young!! He was more shocked than anyone! But just goes to prove my point...

[Diane]

I take back a lot of my comments in my post.
Ive just finished reading a back issue of Just Finches (published before I got my birds) and read several articles on the Exotic bird registration scheme written by some high profile breeders.
After reading their comments on the situation at the time I can see it was a potential minefield.
Lots of government involvement, lots of groups with acronym titles.

Lots of truth in one "tongue in cheek" article, loved some of the comments in that one!

However, taking into consideration the articles and the comments made by Dano about the mixed heritage of the foreign species and the gouldian breeder I still think all we can do is keep the best records we can with the information we have at the time and updating this information as it becomes available. I know from personal experience and comments from other breeders Ive spoken to that mutations can just crop up, even after years of belief in a "pure strain".
We may not have created the problem but it dosnt mean we cant do everything to ensure that others are as well informed as the breeder as to the heritage of the birds they are buying. Who knows, in time maybe someone might work out all the intricacies of breeding true normal birds, but to do any of this they will need breeding records.

[bleeding green]

Dano, The reason behind the idea of the pedigree is not to prove that my birds are 100% gaurenteed pure but more to prompt the buyer to think about the importance of not cross breeding. Trying to start the brain ticking in the newbies aswell as the rusted on old style train of thoughts.

In regards to the gould breeder you mentioned, what is the origin of white breasted? Is it not possible that the gene 'developed' in his stock (like it may have originally) rather then having always been there? Or has the white breasted been bred in? This I am unsure of.

All we can do with foriegn species is breed as true to wild type as possible. There's no point throwing our hands up in the air because lines have been tainted by our ancestors. (Not directed at Dano)