Confused

[jusdeb]

really would love an answer to my question as well....are the mutations as fertile, does the mutation take away from breeding sucess etc


I have not noticed any difference whatsoever ....

[maz]

long long time ago but I did my base degree at Melbourne and my honours at Latrobe....also nearly finished a masters at Monash in a slightly different field Environmental science (I like to move around lol) unfortunately having a family got in the way and I never really put it to much use but the youngest goes to school next year so I might go back and doing something a bit more practical (read something that will get me a job lol)

[finchbreeder]

Daughter has honours next year and is threatening her Doctorate in Germany after that. Unfortunately for her, her parents are suggesting a job if she plans on going beyond honours. Appart from the part time Tutoring she is currently doing that is. Started off with the intention of being a field Zoologist and is now talking Lecturing in the field. So very soon I hope she can answer the genetic questions that stump me. Genetics is a facinating but very involved science.
LML

[djb78]

Ok talking about genetics I'm an absolute dummy when coming to genetics, I'm not one that likes mutations but have seen some nice ones, each to their own I say. Back to subject, I have a flock of painteds, with this mutation business how does the yellow come out? Understanding that you need yellows or split yellows bit the real question is how does one get a yellow if the pure colour forms were red to start off with? Is this a form of evolution, a gene break down so they lose pigmentation or birds have interbred to many times.

[mattymeischke]

Spontaneous mutation occurs constantly at the DNA level. The frequency of spontaneous mutation is surprisingly high, because we have so many cells with so much DNA. This happens for many reasons, not least among them replication errors and environmental radiation. Many of these errors are repaired, or result in the cell being destroyed or switching itself 'off' (apoptosis). Many of them result in no functional effect (so an A might change to a T at DNA level, but there is no change in the protein produced from that DNA). Of the rest, many result in a loss of function and tend not to be reproducded. A very small proportion result in a functional change without affecting the viability of the organism. Of these, a small proportion result in some kind of survival advantage for the organism and are therefore selected for (in nature: by natural selection; in captivity, by us).

Most enzymes have more than one function (and most functions have more than one enzyme); this functional redundancy is typical of living systems and part of the reason why they are robust. This also means that genes governing, say, pigments, also have effects in other systems. As an example, melanin is one of our (humans') most important pigments, but also has roles in regulating mood and circadian rhythms, among others.

Mutations which result in a loss of fitness are very common but rarely reproduced. Most established mutations in aviculture do not result in a significant loss of fitness in captivity, but in the wild it may well be different.
Examples of loss of fitness in avicultural mutations would include the recessive white canary requiring beef suet in its diet to breed well, or the loss of mouth markings in pure white zebra chicks leading to normal chicks being fed preferentially.
In nature, most colour mutations would result in the creature becoming less adapted to its environment by becoming more conspicuous and therefore more likely to be eaten.

The rates of spontaneous mutation in different birds are highly variable, though it remains a bit mysterious why Gouldians and zebs have so many viable mutants while many birds have none.

A fascinating topic; I could write at greater length but I don't want to test the forum's patience.
Hope this is helpful....

[mattymeischke]

really would love an answer to my question as well....are the mutations as fertile, does the mutation take away from breeding sucess etc

the short answer is it depends on the mutation. The vast majority are either dysfunctional, in which case they cannot be established, or neutral, in which case they cannot be noticed.
Of that small fraction which can be established, they ipso facto do not significantly detract from breeding success.
The examples above (white zebs and recessive white canaries) are examples where there is some difficulty with breeding, but a difficulty which can be managed by aviculturalists. In nature, however, a white canary or zeb would not last long.

A Blue American Singer (canary) of mine escaped - beautiful singer but ugly, disproportionate body and a slow, awkward flier - and flew over the fence to the neighbours next door. I leapt the fence to chase him, hoping to get him before the kelpies did. A maggie beat us both, and cleaned him up from behind: you see, the idiot bird had landed in the middle of their yard and commenced to sing..... He tumbled with maggie, and I shooed maggie away, so Blueboy shot up into a pine tree nearby, found a prominent perch - and started singing again! Maggie clobbered him again, and I picked him up off the ground, wonky-winged and barely moving. Thank God, he came good in the hospital cage after about 8 hours, and has since sired many handsome blue singers.

The point being, most of our mutations wouldn't stand a chance in the wild.

[Tiaris]

As to whether mutant birds are weaker in any way, I'm certain that this is the case with most recessive mutations. Mutant to mutant matings nearly always result in smaller & weaker young and poorer survival rates. This is why it is standard practice to mate colour (muant) to split) and to regularly outcross using quality normal birds. I think of many examples where inherent weakness is obvious with recessive mutations. Finch examples of Blue Gouldians, White Longtails, Lutino Blue-faced PFs, Pied Ruddies, Pied Cordons are all FAR weaker than the average normal birds for their mutation even when regularly produced via splits & outcrossed. Dominant mutations tend to be stronger specimens simply because they also tend to be outcrossed more regularly.
The Yellow Painteds aren't appearing because your reds are mutating - Its because both red parents are splits (carry the gene without showing it physically) to the autosomal recessive yellow mutation. Approximately two-thirds of their red offspring will also be splits but you won't know which ones they are by looking at them.

[arthur]

Inbreeding in itself cannot cause mutations to appear

The only way that mutations can occur is that the genes for the mutation unite

If the flock is 'closed' it gives thes genes more opportunity for these genes to 'find each other'

If the necessary genes do not exist in the closed flock, you can inbreed until your nose bleeds and no mutations will occur

[natamambo]

SNIP
I know of an instance of someone breeding 2 mutaion birds together and getting all NORMALS. No other bird could have been involved because they were isolated in a breeding cage and did the same thing 2 nests in a row.
Just as mutations occur NATURALLY so does the reverse, SNIP
LML

FB that is quite feasible without it being a reverse mutation. It is more likely that whatever the mutation was it was a dominant mutation, allowing the "mutant" to be split for normal. An example of this is Yellowback in the Gouldian and Aussie Pied (not Danish Pied) and Spangled in the budgies.

[finchbreeder]

They were Fallow Budgies and pure fallow to pure fallow equalls pure fallow. As fallow can be pure or split, it's recessive.
LML