Building up in experience

[Diane]

Tiaris, you must have been reading my mind, that what I was thinking as I was reading the earlier posts.

[E Orix]

There is one word alot of people do not regard as important and that is RESPONSIBILITY.
People with rare/scarce species here in Australia have a responsibility to those people in the future to maintain and hopefully increase numbers being kept.I am not being a snob or any other pigeon hole someone may put me in,what I am saying if numbers are falling everyone needs to protect that specie,if they can't keep it themselves make sure the word is put out and hopefully some others will step in.I appreciate peoples choices but those keeping Non Australian species in particularly the rarer types have a far far harder task than those keeping our local seedeaters.The Gene pool and availability is no way like our local species.With the exception of the rarer Firetails if I really wanted to I could get the full complement of Aust. Finches,this dose not apply to a large amount of non Aust species.I guess it lends to the theory of elite groups,the reason for these groups is self preservation, trying to keep across species that we desperately need and trying to keep them available.
Price doesn't make a bird easy or hard to breed,its popularity creates the ups and downs. In general the ups are dollar driven though in many cases.
When I started out breeding finches,begginers birds were dollar driven,It was recommended that Sydney Waxbills,Chesnuts,Spice and Zebras were the ones to start with all were inexpensive.Personally I think that the Zebra Finch was the only specie there that I would regard as easy to breed and a begginers specie.
The majority of all the birds were keep are easy to breed,softbills and finches,if given the correct management, and this is where experience takes over.Chats and Wrens are easy to breed if you have one pair to an aviary helpful layout and correct diet,drop one off and you could have a disaster.There are quite a number of so called common non Aust. finches in a dire situation and needing drastic steps to keep them here.Some are under $50 a pair still,maybe not for long.

[E Orix]

Just to add about good breeders.
Age doesn't make you a good breeder, years of experience goes along way to being respected in that field but then you reach a point where the next generation takes over. It was the same for me years ago,today the younger ones out perform and move with the times far faster than the past generation of bird breeders.They have enthuisiasm and drive which is terrific for our hobby.They do the 1% things and that gives them the results
They make the difference today and they will take our hobby up to another level.

[natamambo]

Wow, that started a fire didn't it. I knew it would of course, but penned and posted anyway because I felt it needed to be said. It was the generalisations that got to me, and the expectation that a particular kind of bird husbandry required a particular path of experience. One thing age (usually) brings is enough life experience to know what to try and tackle and when. It (usually) provides enough knowledge about what new challenge a person has the ability to pull off after careful planning. Thus it was in this context that I suggested that years of different experiences could be equally relevant and translatable into a different kind of success.

I'm sure that some young'uns have greater ability than many oldies to raise a particular bird because they have learned the hard way when young. But to a certain extent any other related "skill" can be useful in taking on new and different challenges.

My concern is that this board is gradually shifting to an ethical viewpoint where some people are judged by others own coloured glasses. Little credit seems to be given to those who see a challenge, adequately equip themselves and then embark on that challenge if the that equipping has come from some other means than pre-conceived levels of hardness. We've all made mistakes that killed birds I'm sure. Sometimes birds die and we never find out the cause and maybe it's nothing that we could have done differently.

Behaving responsibly and responsibility are of course different things and the latter almost becomes an ethical position. I can make sure that my birds have the absolute best conditions and breed successfully and live long and happy lives. If I do it out of love for the craft and the creature then so be it. If that helps foster a species or a mutation all the better. However altruism need not be the primary goal of very breeder but that very success achieves the same outcome as someone who has a solely altruistic motive. At no point did I consider I was suggesting that behaving responsibly was unnecessary.

[Myzomela]

Hi Natamambo,

I think the concern expressed by Weaver, E Orix, Tiaris and others stems from the situation where really rare birds have ended up in the hands of those who can afford them, rather than those who have the experience/knowledge/drive/sense of responsibility to do them justice. As a result the species have been effectively lost to aviculture in recent times.

It is true that some people simply have a nack for animals, even with little experience, and can breed rare species well. But the reality is that in most circumstances reading up on a species is simply not enough to ensure success with the more challenging birds. You also need to have the basic management tools down pat.

The responsibility, of course, also lies with the seller of these rare birds to ensure that individual birds and pairs end up in the right hands. Thankfully, cooperation between holders of rare species seems to be high at the moment (in most cases) which is very encouraging to see.

So I believe these comments are not made out of snobbery, but out of concern for the future welfare of the species. Past experience has been a hard taskmaster... Cardinals, violet ears, grey singers, shamas, blue breasted waxbills, bronze-winged mannikins etc etc

[Weaver]

By way of explaination I started this thread to get people thinking about "protecting" the ever shrinking stocks of the rarer birds.

I am neither young nor new to the hobby (having kept finches for more than 50 years).

If I have come across as looking down from my SOAPBOX that is unfortunate. I try to put back as much as I can into this pasttime and I offer up the following list of birds that have been lost in the last 20 years.
Red Crested Cardinals, Green Cardinals, Yellow Billed Cardinals, Magpie Mannikins, Indian Silverbills, Yellow Shouldered Whydahs, Large Green Singers, Lavender Waxbills, Violet Eared Waxbills, Blue Breasted Waxbills, Mask Weavers, Village Weavers, European Siskin, Shama Thrush, Black Crested Finch, Dybowskki's Twinspots ............. and the list goes on. These didn't die out overnight they remained with collectors often as isolated single birds for many years.

I could create an equally long list of the species we are in danger of loosing now.

Experience is when you know instinctively when something "isn't right", and you may need to interfere. You will know from the way the parents are performing when the young are hatched. You will know by how the live food is being consumed not only how things are going but at what stage they are at. These things can be learnt from watching closly related birds.

Lastly I don't for one minute suggest that the young ones are the problem. I met both Spanna and Jaybird at Finches 11 and think the hobby is safe in their hands. The ones that scare me are the cashed up collectors.

If this thread just gets a few people to rethink then it is worth it.

[vettepilot_6]

Totally agree Weaver .....only thing I can add that we as a group of bird fanciers be it finches,softbills or parrots need to lobby the government to open up importing again (dogs,cats are able to come in and cats have gone feral)...Then we can improve the stocks we have and be able to learn more...and I am always learning more, been doing it for over 30yrs.....and I have bred my fair share of different finches....but only thing I dont breed (although lovely) are mutants...dont see how you can improve on nature....I think the younger generation are very eager to improve bird husbandry and to them....but as you say cashed up collectors will always be a problem.....

[amalan11]

orix..im curious which birds you refer to for under $50 that are in dire trouble ,just got me wondering

[VR1Ton]

Experience is when you know instinctively when something "isn't right", and you may need to interfere.

Couldn't agree more with everything that has been said. Experience, & obsivation are the most important part of advancing in our hobby, but might want to add the knowledge, & willingness to listen & expand on our knowledge, or change husbandry practices when advancements are made, as unfortunately, experience & knowledge don't necssarily go hand in had. I've seen a few of the old breeders not do little things such as change wormers because "the one they use has always worked", but are not sure why there breeding results were down, as they had wormed their birds & had done everything as usual. The opposite can also be said, & old methods that one might see as out dated should not be dismissed. But the wad of cash wouldn't go astray if you've got all of the above .

[vettepilot_6]

orix..im curious which birds you refer to for under $50 that are in dire trouble ,just got me wondering

In my mind a couple come to mind although some maybe more then $50......Pictorella....Kimberly Star Finch....Normal Java Finch....Normal Zebras....Normal Gouldians (all head colours) ....Aberdeen...Cut Throat....Black throat Finch to name a few....they may not be endangered but are getting harder and harder to find