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jusdeb
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Agreed BB . Back in the early days of dog showing imported dogs were necessary as the gene pool was already extremely small , all it did was create yet another tiny gene pool .
Inbreeding was ( is ) rife and unlike our European friends who cull less than perfect dogs we continued to breed from them thus the garbage dogs we have today (some)...leniant show judges didnt help .
Got to give it to the Germans , they created some awesome dogs and though the methods were harsh you would not find fault in any imports until we got out hands on them .

Add to the list of duds the Dachsund ..made to tunnel and hunt and did well until it left Germany , now you have a dog that slips a disc jumping on a lounge ,,,far cry from what it was originally . :cry:
Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue.
David Brent
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Mortisha
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I think you would be hard pressed to find any population of domesticated animals that are genetically 100% true to wild type. Aside from places like zoos and few breeders that introduce wild genes whenever they can get them.
Just the act of keeping them for generation after generation after generation in captivity selects out the genetics that allows the bird or animal to exist in cages without dying of stress and to adapt to having their movement, behaviours and diet significantly changed.

We all know that individual animals can be trained to exist in close contact with humans. A young owl fed by hand, imprinting on its handlers, may grow up to treat them like family. But that owl's offspring, at birth, will be just as wild as its ancestors.

Domestication, by contrast, is not a quality trained into an individual, but one bred into an entire population through generations of living in proximity to humans. Many if not most of the species' wild instincts have long since been lost. Domestication, in other words, is mostly in the genes.

The famous Russian experiment with foxes is a dramatic example of what happens to animals genetically when they are especially bred to be friendly, less stressed around humans and easier to handle. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue ... estication/

As the husbandry for keeping birds has improved dramatically, more and more generations can be bred without the addition of wild genes, so who knows where it will end up.

In the show dog world Breed societies and their judges have a lot to answer for – rewarding poor breeding, ignoring mutations are that clearly unhealthy and distressing for the dog. It is happening in the horse show world as well unfortunately.

Maybe I’m having a misanthrope’s day, but with 70% of the world population headed for urbanization, most humans will have no idea what a wild type looks like and probably more than likely not care.
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Tiaris
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venetta wrote:One that has disturbed me is the munchkin breed of cat.... short legs, long body, haven't they learnt anything from the dachshunds! :/
I'd much prefer these to the healthy efficient killers of native wildlife which most people propogate. I'm all for stumpy legged & ideally headless cats & would be happy to draw up the new show standard & administer the breed society if it means less of the healthy wren-munchers.

Seriously though, a very good point very well made by Tintola in the original post. We should never lose sight of why we were attracted to birds as an interest in the first place & keep this in mind in how we breed our captive stocks of all species. I'm sure most aviculturists would have been attracted to birds for their inherent natural beauty.
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E Orix
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The way I read the following comments, some have missed the point.
Mortisha your comments are fine but not what the original post was all about.
I am very well aware of how poor some of the species are genetically but what the post started out was why do people continually
breed Mutations with obvious defects.
Each has a personal opinion and it generally tends to control what they keep.
I like the Lutino Blue Faced Parrot Finch but decided that it wasn't good for the birds in my aviary setup.
In bright sunlight their pink eyes made it very difficult to move around so they spent much of their time tucked up deep in the aviary shelter.
As for management I have two species in my aviary Jacarinis and Yellow Faced Stars they originated from Earnie Reeds stock I guess nearly 40 years ago.
All are still strong no other mutations that have appeared,why, because every couple of years I add 2 or 3 cockbirds from outside.
Back to the obvious defects people accept,why maybe its a talking point,maybe money, I don't know but those that do it are not high in my book
as genuine breeders of quality animals and birds.
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Tintola
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Very well said and interesting to hear other peoples views on this topic.
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maz
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An example that's closer to home is exhibition budgies....so far removed from wild type that they have vision problems causing distorted flight patterns and need the feathers around their vents cut so that they are able to mate (don't get me wrong if you want to breed them go ahead but admit that what you are doing is not in the birds best interest)....showing and standards of any animal lead to an exaggeration of features for human pleasure, we see it in dogs,cats and even in rats (manx and hairless varieties)....personally I think everyone needs to take a step back and think about WHY they are breeding these mutations and whether it is purely for competitive and human values rather than for the animals well being. On the dog issue here is a great video showing what has happened in just recent history http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hex00WjS ... ture=share" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and it only touches on the issue plenty more breeds could be added. The other problem is that it is an incremental issue, the changes are only slight at each generation and it isn't until we see the then and now pictures that people realise how ggreat the changes are.
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djb78
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Well standing back and reading this post it is sad to hear about people taking mutation breeding to far. I personally would rather be renowned for having strong healthy birds than to be a person who has a new mutation that's not healthy or strong. I understand that people like mutations and are trying to bring out strong healthy specimens. I believe when altering a birds appearance and not worring about the health of the young is wrong. Unfortunately no one is able to stop this from happening and if only the people that wish to venture down the path making new mutations made proper plans of how they are going to achieve their goals with possible outcomes being good or bad, if more bad outcomes then they should start from scratch. I know that there are people out there that are spending alot of time (years) and money just trying to perfect the already numerous amounted mutations (blue gouldian for one) and trying their hardest to get strong and healthy birds so please don't put everybody that breeds mutations under the same category that they just have no consideration for the birds in which they breed. I myself have had a couple of mutations but the very basic (yellow painteds and stars) and none of these were my own doing these were lines in which came out with buying new blood for my already existing colony.
Danny
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Tintola
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Maz Thanks for posting that link, it was fantastic and is exactly what I was trying to say regarding extreme bird mutations.

I'm not Mutation Bashing, but when it starts to go pear shaped, STOP.
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Tiaris
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I noticed in the last Aviary Life magazine that Don Burke & others have started a miniature budgerigar society for small, tight-feathered, active birds as per wild type as the standard. Ironically, this standard is likely to be so freakishly different to the general run of show budgies that people will most likely be drawn to them because of this difference to most captive stock. If people are drawn to this new society in droves it will be the something different going full circle.
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jusdeb
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Have just set up a rather neat little aviary just for bush budgies , can not believe how beautiful they are petite , lively .

Having never seen them before I can notice the major differences between them and the boof heads we are used to.

They still bite like a rabid pit bull ...

Oh and its not just mutations that are showing up with these abnormalities either , normals not managed correctly will produce the same freaks .
Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue.
David Brent
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