Virkon-S + vitamins in drinking water - can be mixed or not?

[Finchy]

Hi finchy

I've got an automated watering system for my aviaries. Its been installed for three years now and have had no problems with dirty and unclean water what so ever. Its flushed out three times a day and for only two minutes.
Laurie.

Ooh I would luuurv to build a setup like that ! Have always wanted to plumb their bathing pool into an auto system! The challenge is that there's 10m between the nearest plumbed water supply, and those 10m include a hill, three retaining walls, a lawn, 2 flower beds, some concrete and a patio . I'm sure someone who knows what they are doing could get around all of that, but I don't, so will need tips. Lots of them. Any particular do's/dont's, based on your experience?

(I know, I am taking my own question off course into watering systems rather than biochemistry...)

[Craig52]

My no is not simply reactive. Just common sense when both vitamin additives (intended for animal consumption) and Virkon S (not intended for animal consumption at all) both warn clearly to use as directed on the label. Combining already toxic chemicals with presumably non-toxic vitamins is a complete unknown as to possible further danger, although very likely hazardous when one is already highly questionable at best. It is very dodgy to selectively usea a small part of one person's science combined with another's highly speculative opinion and claim you are applying a science-based approach to "medicating" your birds.
I am not a chemist or a scientist, but I have received two separate 2nd person recommendations both originating from professional chemists to not use Virkon S in any food to be fed to birds regularly such is the toxicity of its chemical constituents. That'll do this tiger.

Tiaris this is where the use of virkon s in sprouting seed worries me,(not intended for animal consumption at all).I am amazed how much water is soaked up into the seed,as well as the virkon s thats in the water.And also the amount of virkon s that MF recommends per litre of water,eg half to one teaspoon,and he also recommends not to rinse the soaked seed after it has soaked for a few hours,but i do,i can't stop thinking about how much of the virkon s has been taken up by the seed as to become toxic to the birds.
I also use virkon s in a spray bottle at half a teaspoon to 250ml for spraying containers and food dishes and the sink its self in my bird room,and have noticed that in a 2-3 days the pink colour turns clear.I've been told when this happens it is absolutely useless.
Do you think it would be dispersed from the seed by the time the birds get to eat it as it is frozen as soon as it pips. Craig

[jusdeb]

water is water ..its function is to keep the organs working , dilute toxins and rehydrate ...adding crap to it changes it from water to something else yeah yeah very technical explanation but best I can do with a pain in my head , 40 degree heat and a year 11 ejacation ....

[Tiaris]

I also use it to spray down the aviary walls after an annual cleanup & to wash dirty feed dishes. I have previously used it to sprout seed too.
If it is absorbed into the sprouted seed (& I can't see how it wouldn't be) where is it going to disperse to?

[Finchy]

Craig, if you are concerned about Virkon-S in the seed I would not use it at all, as it will inevitably be absorbed by the swelling seed. No amount of freezing or waiting will remove it after the fact. A small amount of residue could be removed by rinsing the seed then immediately freezing it, which seems reasonable to me even though MF believes it's not necessary.

Note that other disinfectant chemicals commonly used for seed sprouting are similar, just less effective at preventing fungal growth. Fungi are perhaps the most dangerous things of all to ingest, for any critter. If you are able to sprout with plain water, rinsing diligently every couple of hours until freezing, that's a possibility.

(I guess I should give up on my biochemistry question, as my thread has been hijacked and morphed into a war of disinfectant water additives instead! I will try elsewhere. )

[mattymeischke]

Well said, Deb, I don't reckon it needs to be any more complicated than that.
Finchy, you have seemed a little over-concerned about irradiation of seed and similar issues in other topics. I find it surprising that you would consider putting such harsh chemicals into the water.

Regular use of any oral or injected antibacterial, fungal, microbial chemical is risky in my book. It encourages development of resitant organisms. Even two days out of ten.

Very true, though resistance to disinfectants is less of a problem than it is with antibiotics. Intermittent or incomplete dosing certainly leads to the development of resistance.

I am also surprised to learn that birds do not have gut flora. You learn something new every dau....

So was I, and I did some reading around it and it is not really an established fact, more an interesting idea which has gotten a lot of air.
I think Myzo may have swabbed the vents of some finches in pursuit of an answer; he may have a more solid opinion on the matter.
Inituitively, it seems to me unlikely that a finches gut has no bacteria. Given that there are bacteria in subglacial Antarctic lakes, deep ocean vents and just about everywhere else in the word it seems unlikely that finch sh1t would be sterile.

Finchy: Do you see any contradiction between the 'sterile gut hypothesis' and the use of probiotics?

[mattymeischke]

I guess I should give up on my biochemistry question

Not really biochemistry, tigress; more like bucket pharmacology.
Let me steer the topic back to your original questions.

Is it OK to mix liquid vitamins in with low-dose Virkon-S drinking water? Has anyone done this on a regular basis? Any glaring reason not to do it?

(i) It's fine to mix them, but I don't reckon you should give the resulting mixture to animals.
(ii) Not that I am aware of.
(iii) See Tiaris' response(s).

[Craig52]

I also use it to spray down the aviary walls after an annual cleanup & to wash dirty feed dishes. I have previously used it to sprout seed too.
If it is absorbed into the sprouted seed (& I can't see how it wouldn't be) where is it going to disperse to?

As i said about the spray container going from pink to clear in a couple of days sitting on the sink,i have been told that it has no powers to it anymore and is useless,where does the colour go also.? Craig

Boy are you guys quick with your posts,i'm only a one finger typer

[Tiaris]

dunno

[jusdeb]

Not being rude Finchy but if you don't want opinions or your thread " hijacked " then just ask google ....