Dropped wing tips - definite meaning or generic symptom?

[garymc]

Again well said Paul. I dont know about the 5am start being a must though, but if thats work related I would have to agree with that also.

Craig comments on specialisation, or just giving them every opportunity also holds very true and not just with gouldians.

[Finchy]

Thanks so much for all of those thoughts Paul.

My issue is that my other birds are stunners and very resilient. I have normal Gouldian hens who have bred into their sixth year of life in that environment. I feed them superbly - far more trouble than many would go to, with quality clean seed, good protein sources, major minerals and micronutrients, green seed, fresh veggies, sunshine/good climate and location, wind protection, etc.

I have only lost two normal or yellow adult Gouldians in the past two+ years, out of a base population at any one time of 25 to 35 - and both of those died from old age!!
Out of dozens of babies who fledged normally over the past two years I have only lost two - one normal and one yellow, followed by the only two blue babies I have ever bred.

So I have bought four young blue adults and some splits from unrelated sources in NSW between 2007 and 2013, plus now I finally bred two of my own blues. That's six blues. All six blues have died within weeks, unless antibiotics were supplied. All of the splits, normal and yellows, barring the two fledglings, lived well. That's 100% disease-related death in blues, versus 2% disease-related in normals, yellows and splits.

Do you see what I'm saying? 'Blueness' is not a suspected variable in my case; it's starkly, obviously, unmistakeably the variable.

Even the most diligent, knowledgeable and trustworthy NSW Gouldian breeder I know personally has also been unable to succeed with blues, apparently from the very best breeders, over a number of years. His other birds are quite phenomenal. It's to the point he is now (understandably) convinced that breeders claiming they are succeeding with blues outdoors, without antibiotics, are simply lying. And his aviaries are far more clinical and cloistered than mine.

I hope that's incorrect, of course, and that there is just some peculiar confounding variable between different lines of blues about which we are all currently unaware, but which will eventually be understood.

Right now I cannot conceive of what else I could possibly do differently or 'better', other than keeping them indoors, or an aviary that's so enclosed that it might as well be indoors, and feeding intermittent antibiotics - none of which is actually 'better'.

Paul, I am amazed that you have been able to breed so many from the incredibly narrow gene pool of two birds, which in itself would usually be expected to lead to problems. You have won the genetic lottery with those guys!! Very lucky indeed.

[Mr Tino]

Hi Finchy I new you would come back with a answer like that,so I think that you must have a lot of problem with Blue Gouldian,It sound to me like that,you have not done enough homework where you bought your stock from ,also what surprise me is you say all Blue Gouldian are weak,I can prove your wrong,because I have pair that have been atound five to six year of breeding young with no problem,also those seven years you breed those Blue Gouldian did you breed them back those fanastic normal Gouldian you say ?? .Bye for now.


Cheer From Mr Tino

[gouldianpaul]

Hi Finchy,

Maybe us Victorian breeders have developed a stronger strain than those in NSW....although I find this hard to believe as there are many NSW breeders on this forum who consistently breed good numbers and quality blues year after year.

Not all breeders are what they seem. When I got back into Gouldians 4+ years ago I also found this fantastic NSW breeder of normals....great looking birds...would have made magnificent show birds. The only problem is the were as weak as p@#$ when it came to breeding stock. This same breeder has also tried the blues and after 3 years he gave up claiming there are weak. I think the main problem is that his base stock (normals) are inferior as breeding stock....out of respect I won't name him because he is well known in NSW....a nice guy but his birds are just not for me.

I have not won the genetic lottery....the 3 breeders I have acquired my stock from have produced healthy, strong, quality birds in good numbers year after year. Why....because they have worked hard to establish a strong blood line and not relied on others. Don't get me wrong we still experience disappointments and the odd bad season.....Many Victorian breeders did not have a great year in 2013 in terms of the number of birds breed, however some breeders still had a fantastic year in 2013.

So to me your problem seems to stem from your blue stock you have sourced in the past.....I also noticed your comment about not wanting to breed Gouldians in an "indoor avairy" environment. To me it is very important to protect your Gouldians from cold drafts....surely you do not expect your Gouldians to breed in an avairy that is unprotected....it would like us humans going outside in the middle of winter in a singlet....understanding the needs of the Gouldian does not mean you need to change it to make it tough and capable of thriving in an environment that is totally removed from what it is capable of handeling.....so maybe you also need to look at your setup.

Finally my comments were not intended to be personal (as you seem to have taken it) but if you are going to post comments seeking assistance then expect advice which may be different to your current thinking.

Regards
Paul

[Bgould]

When buying blues from NSW it is my opinion to visit the breeders in person to actually see how they are breeding them. I have found unfortunately a few speak with a fork tongue in regards to the use of raising young under Bangelese but I am happy to say that there is a small number of breeders in NSW who do breed blues in aviaries and parent raised. But you have to do your research.

[Finchy]

Thanks Paul. I wasn't taking it personally; not sure what gave that impression but I appreciated your comments and was just explaining my exasperation at my experience. I am so very attentive to their care, and persist longer than most, yet still meet with very decisive failure.

My personal bottom line is that I don't want birds that need to be mollycoddled. If other colours can thrive in their sunny outdoor environment but blues from 4+ blood lines (including those crossed with my own strong splits) cannot survive let alone thrive, that makes them non-viable by my book. Those who can keep them in special quarters, maybe that's OK, but it's not for me. Or if some strong lines genuinely exist, that's fantastic. I just want normal, resilient birds.

I am forever hopeful that the blue is viable and there's something definitive to explain what I and others have experienced, such as a simple genetic defect that accompanies the blue gene in some lines but is divorced from it in others. I'm really hoping that's it. I've just officially stopped holding my breath on that. I'd love to see an aviary of blues thriving.

(My 2013 year has actually set breeding records for Goulds and other species. We've had the most fantastic weather and conditions. Bred more than I could handle.)

[gouldianpaul]

seems pretty obvious to me the main concern is the stock coming out of some breeders in NSW....this also coincides with the hidious practice of some breeders who foster gouldians under bangelese. Why would you need to treat your Gouldians like a chook and mass produce young. Again seems fairly obvious to me....it is done for financial gain.

So to anyone considering the use of manikans to foster Gouldians here is my pitch to persuade you to stop:
- On average a pair of Gouldians will raise 2 nest of 3-5 young per year....so that is 6-10 young per year (lets take the lower end)
- Basic mathematics tells me if I pair up 10 pairs of gouldians I should produce 60+ young.
- From these 60 I shold produce 25% (15 young) that are exceptional, 50% that are fairly good (30 young) and 25% that don't make the grade (15 young ....off to the bird dealer).
- So from my 10 pairs I should have an additional 15 young to add back into my stock the following year and about 30 young to sell to other like minded breeders
- IMO the 25% (15 young) of inferior birds should not be sold to like minded breeders....as they will weaken our combined gene pool

From the 30 young you sell to other like minded breeders you would expect them to achieve similar results to what you achieve (if they do their home work).
- When I sell a Gouldian to a breeder who seems to know what they are talking about i see this person as free advertising......hopefully they will tell other breeders of their good experience from buying birds which result in them producing many quality young of their own.
- I would hope that positive word of mouth feedback from these buyers would continue throughout our bird community.

If you feel that 60 young per year is not enough for you, then ensure you can adequately look after more than 10 pairs.

So i repeat a 2 part statement from an earlier post.....
- Maybe it's about time we named (and shamed) those using bangelese to foster their gouldians
- Maybe we should publicly let other AFF members know about the good experiences we have when buying a bird from someone on this forum

So to people like Finch I am happy to pass on the details of the 3 breeders I purchased my original stock from....I won't name them in this post as that would embarrass them...but I'm sure many here would know who they are.

Cheers
Paul

[Craig52]

Another very informative post Paul,where did you say you worked again?,you would make a great sales consultant only joken

So it all boils down to blues being a specialist bird at this stage.I was one of the first to get these birds breeding in aviaries on their own with out the help of Bengo's,infact Pauls birds were derived from mine through other breeders in Melbourne.

The other thing to keep in mind is that gouldians don't have under feathers(downe) and it doesn't matter how domesticated they are they can't be treated like other finches that do,hence they do require alot more protection from the elements than the latter.To say that they can't handle your aviary conditions like your other finches is absolutely true (blues i am talking about).IMO blues are a relatively new mutation in Australia and in Australia breeders breed their birds in aviaries where as where these birds came from (England)they are/were bred in cabinets and or raised by bengo's.We have come a long way with this mutation with breeders like Paul and others who have put their time and effort and brain to work with them to get where they are today and i them.But i condemn other people who post downers of their experiences and not listen to what more experienced specialist breeders of these birds are saying.Off the soap box now. Craig

[gouldianpaul]

Hi Craig

Well said...so you are are the reason why some of my birds look like little craig gouldians definately some inbreeding going on there

What Craig has said is 100% correct...gouldians lack of ability to handle draft is related to the fact they do not have any down feather....this is also the reason why my avairy is insulated to prevent young freezing at night once the hen stops sitting on them at night.

As for the blues I beleive they also have a greater need for protein and Vitamin E. For example all of my blues are the very first birds to smash fresh (raw) egg shells.....the entire shell is consumed within a few hours.

I also think that is enough from me on this topic as well....asta lavista

Cheers
Paul

[wildbill]

i'd say a good place to buy the blue gouldian is victoria -less chance of being bengalese bashed. now an even better place to buy diamond sparrows is orange nsw. sorry mutations only. great nest builders which some of the big breeders of the diamond sparrows west sydney side fail to do.
although i am lead to believe those guys sell their diamonds with a ready made nesting kit.