Yellow Siskin x Goldfinch mule project

[Tiaris]

[elferoz777]

100 % see and understand your perspective.

Unlike others im not selling any i produce. I'm keeping then for the appearance, song and fostering abilities.

It was like when aussie yellow genes turned up in my gouldian colony. That gave me the poops and set me back a little.

Given my five pairs haven't hatched a yellow siskin baby this season is concerning. At this rate my yellow supply is not giving much back.

[SamDavis]

I've been reading this thread with interest. I know elferoz would well have anticipated the responses so far. I get both sides, sympathise with both sides and hope to put a bit of a different slant on the whole business.

Firstly, producing hybrids of any species is not my interest, nevertheless I do respect the wealth of knowledge and skill required to produce such mules. There are many aspects to finch aviculture and a vast range of skills and knowledge. Recently some of our FSA members who foster a range of species under bengos have provided important knowledge critical to the success of research efforts (more on this 2016). We should not be too quick to lose or denigrate skills learnt over generations. In terms of hybrids, the ability to induce a pair of birds to breed who would not otherwise choose to do so is not a simple task and such skills have obvious benefits for future conservation efforts.

A few facts:
- the Hooded or Yellow Siskin is common in the wild and has an enormous range
- the species is common in Aviculture globally
- it is Australia's import/export regime that is the "elephant in the room" issue for Yellow Siskins (and many other foreign species).
- Goldfinches in Australia are a common feral species

On behalf of the FSA I recently wrote a brief submission in response to the draft BIRA (Bio-security Import Risk Analysis) processes which when passed will accompany our new federal Bio-security Act. This is not my area of expertise and to be honest it was a last minute submission so we (Aviculture) at least have a voice. To my knowledge this submission is the only submission on the BIRA from Aviculture. If everyone is so concerned about the potential loss of foreign species to Aviculture then why not stand up and have a say on the draft BIRA? Opening our borders to import/export in my view IS the answer. Concern about hybrids is fine, but making out that it is the downfall of a rare (in Australia) species with no attempt to solve the underlying import/export issue I find a bit rich.

By the way, I'm currently in the process of sourcing some young Yellow Siskins, but no Goldfinches!

Happy New Year to all.
Sam

[elferoz777]

[elferoz777]

If i manage to breed some sam they are all yours.

Damn weather has ruined the season.

As you alluded to sam there is a degree of skill involved and also a larger degree of purpose outside of the look and sound of the bird.

Im 32 not 62 and that sometimes does me no favours in this hobby but i have learnt from some of the best in the game. I have aqcuired and bred rare species in my time and i think we need to do everything we can to encourage the hobby.

The fact i have received some pms re this post rather than public comments reflects the obvious bias against
Mule breeding and other euro practices.

Importing would be great and whilst sams letter may have been 'rushed' it wasn't lacking.

[Tiaris]

In the early 1990s, among other things, I wrote a lengthy submission to the then ANCA addressing all of the risk assessment criteria for the Rufous-backed Mannikin as at the time of the prelude to the exotic bird registration scheme they were proposed for a very heavily restricted category without justification. During this time I was heavily involved with consultative committee meetings, writing lengthy submissions, making representations, etc. with both NSW State and Commonwealth departments, ministers, MPs & senior bureacrats & the whole experience thoroughly convinced me that the various government bodies will never allow legal finch imports into Australia. Whilst from aviculture's perspective this is clearly a very desirable outcome and would also, from a government/public good perspective, adequately address and largely overcome the potential threats surrounding illegal bird smuggling, there is simply no will at any bureaucratic level to accept that it is a desirable outcome for their policy objectives which are overwhelmingly dictated by wildlife protection. No amount of common-sense discussion will convince environment department bureaucrats that captive birds are not wildlife.
If this is not insurmountable enough as an obstacle, the other half of the equation for import to ever occur is the supply side. ie. adequate stocks of permanently identifiable (micro-chipped), captive-bred birds of rare species which foreign breeders are willing and able to dispose of (to a market which is unlikely to be ever in a position to reciprocate with stock back to them) and hold said stock for months under onerous quarantine conditions on behalf of their purchasers and then go through all that is required to send them to Australia. If you doubt that this is the true picture, I challenge you to contact a few genuine breeders in the allowable "cold countries" and canvass their interest in such trade. I can assure you that I have already done this & the response has consistently been something along the lines of "our stocks of genuine captive-bred rare finch species are already declining here without sending consignments of them to Australia" (or words unambiguously to that effect).
In my view, this supply-side should be examined thoroughly prior to even bother trying to bash your head against the impenetrable bureaucratic walls of government approvals for the process to ever occur in future.

[Birds_lover]

Sometimes I think that trying to explain why we try to produce mules/hybrids to certain aviculturists, it's the same thing to explain to a non aviculturist why we keep birds in cages. It's such a pain!

Personally, you're doing nothing wrong and I would like to try to breed and keep goldfinch x siskin birds. Unfortunately, I don't have time nor space to keep all the species I like.

How old are the chicks now?

[Tiaris]

Moral dilemmas are a pain aren't they?

[collector_and_buyer]

I too have been watching this thread and can't help wondering that if people are so up in arms over supposedly waisting a Siskin hen,why hasn't anybody helped with either offering a spare cockbird for sale or even given suggestions as to where one could be bought [via other breeders], if so desired.If this young hen rears her mules,what a valuable lesson she has learnt,after all,she doesn't know they are mules and when paired back with a cock Siskin,she will have the experience to rear her young.One lost season is not the end of the world or the beginning of the downfall of a specie and i am sure the owner would probably endeavour to procure a cock Siskin for the next breeding season.Should he choose to keep this pairing as is,it is also his prerogative,as they are his birds and his to do with what he sees fit.

[Tiaris]

I'm not that bothered by this particular hen Siskin being used the way it is and I know that we need all keen aviculturists to stay in the hobby and stay keen for whatever reasons motivate them.
I do think though that we need to have some basic guiding principles to follow in our hobby which ensure the we make the most of what limited genetic material we have been left by our forefathers (& mothers) & do our absolute utmost to ensure we leave for our children a useful gene pool of as many species as possible and some important standards of aviculture (usually set by example) if their children are to have many genetically viable species at all to enjoy.
I have lost count of the number of enquiries I've had for Red Siskins for use as prospective mule parents. This is a species which is not only CITES schedule 1 (highly endangered) but its rare native status is primarily due to trapping for aviculture. Try justifying that utterly shameful one to people who don't believe birds should be kept in captivity.
Making a dog's breakfast of the dwindling list of exotic species we now have in the hope that one day importation will reinstate them to their glory is an absolute crock of the proverbial.