Aussie Finch Forum

Wow, go matty (and finchy)! How good is this forum with such science literate AFFers!

And welcome Dennis. I've been using your Avigrain finch mix as my basic staple for years (I use it in self feeders in each aviary). I've always found it to be clean and sprouts fine for me (so not irradiated). I do find the mix can change a bit between batches. Not a big deal for me as I also keep a supply of individual seeds which are fed separately depending on the species and who's breeding in each aviary.

MATTY

The thing that got my attention in the research was....

Finchy wrote:the results of feeding five malnourished Indian children wheat irradiated with 75,000 rads

From my research this occurred in the "enlightened" times of 1975, by their own Government!
OMG those poor kids. I agree with matty on this, where were the ethics?
Certainly puts priorities into place when they are testing this kind of thing on children.
From a PDF document I found on the study........http://www.ajcn.org/content/28/2/130.full.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fifteen children suffering from severe protein- calorie malnutrition were
divided into three groups of five each and received diets con taming either unirradiated, freshly
irradiated, or stored irradiated wheat.

That aside, this wasn't a large study....(thank goodness) and I believe studies involving small numbers are still open to interpretation.

Half way through MMs post ..this is gonna need a coffee me thinks .
Very enlightening ...back to it now .

Apart from any scientific findings I think the birds are the best judge. Put irradiated (sterile) and non-irradiated seed in 2 bowls side-by-side & I bet they won't touch the treated one until the other is all gone. My birds at least simply do not like to eat irradiated seed unless it is their only option so I make every effort to only obtain Australian grown seed fr my birds. If imported seed is a rarity which is only used in Avigrain mixes when there are no local supply options then that's great. I strongly disagree that irradiated seed has the same nutritional value as "live" seed but this is probably due largely to a more rapid loss of food value after treatment. Fresh & local is by far the best dry seed option & every effort should be made to get as close as possible to this ideal. If Dennis is committed to this then he is certainly doing the right thing by his customers.

mattymeischke wrote:*falls gracelessly from soapbox*

Plop

Thanks for the link, BB.
I have digested the article, and looked for any follow-up work.
Could find no more recent work to corroborate their findings; perhaps people have become squeamish about courting radiation poisoning in sick children.

Interesting to see the context in which this study was done: "In view of the large volume of literature generally supporting the absence of harmful effects of irradiated wheat in several mammalian species..."(p.130)

Some curious differences in the groups, too. The inital weight of the group fed unirradiated wheat was 7.8+/-0.684kg, versus 6.68+/-0.520 kg in the group fed stored irradiated wheat.

None of which undermines their key finding, which is that the group fed irradiated wheat developed abnormalities of certain peripheral blood immune cells (lymphocytes), then got better. They are a bit less extreme in their interpretation, however, than George L. Tritsch (PhD).
The authors of the study say (p.134): "The precise biological signifcance of polyploidy is not known, but polyploid cells have been shown to occur in man in malignancy, after exposure to irradiation, during viral illnesses, and in senility. The long-term health hazard significance of polyploidy seen in the children studied here who had received freshly irradiated wheat is not clear".
Compare with Tritsch (PhD), who opines "this is unequivocal evidence of a potent mutagen in irradiated wheat".

Always good to get back to the original study for a bit of perspective.

I was not intending to go into this further but Matty got me thinking. As a result of more reading I find myself no longer neutral-negative about feeding irradiated seed but decidedly against it. I have had to conclude that feeding irradiated food is simply not worth the risk of the potentially catastrophic cumulative health effects, which are rather too unpredictable for comfort (described below).

I will be changing entirely to local non-irradiated seed and not risking feeding brands which might include a significant percentage of imported/irradiated seed. This has to include all brands which do not fully or reliably label their product ingredients.

Below is a news piece that most of us will remember from a couple of years ago, plus some more research pickings/refs for folk who are inclined to follow up on the detail:

[Science news from http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=13088" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;]

At least three instances of irradiated food causing severe nervous system disease have occurred around the world since 1998. ....

The Australian government in late May ordered an immediate stop to sterilizing cat food via irradiation after reviewing scientific studies pointing to food irradiation as the culprit behind illnesses characterized by ataxia or paralysis of the limbs... The problem affected 90 cats in Australia, of which 30 died, mostly by euthanasia after they became paraplegic or tetraplegic, according to Dr. Georgina Child, a neurologist at the Small Animal Specialist Hospital...

...all the cats had eaten an imported dry diet, sold under the brand name Orijen and made in Canada by Champion Petfoods. The food was subject to gamma irradiation upon entry to Australia at levels greater than or equal to 50 kilo-Grays (kGy). ... Symptoms in the Australian cats first appeared three to six months after they were exposed ... histopathology showed “diffuse, symmetric, severe white matter degeneration of predominantly the spinal cord but also (the) brain stem and cerebrum, with demyelination the predominant feature.”

...Dr. Ian Duncan, professor of neurology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine. …. irradiation was meant to help keep the cats — known as “specific pathogen-free” or SPF cats — from unwittingly acquiring infections. … reported this spring in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (“Extensive remyelination of the CNS leads to functional recovery,” PNAS, March 30, 2009, Duncan I.D. et al.), the food was irradiated at levels of 25 to 50 kGy. The symptoms took about four months to appear. …

In the Irish case, 190 domestic short-hair cats housed together developed hind limb ataxia and proprioceptive defects during a period of four years, from 1998 to 2001 (“Leukoencephalomyelopathy in Specific Pathogen-free Cats,” J.P. Cassidy et al., Vet Pathol 2007; 44:912-916). … Both groups of cats were fed on the same commercial formula ration, except that the food bound for SFP cats was irradiated to levels between 36.3 and 47.3 kGy.

The transferred cats did not develop any neurological abnormalities. More than one-third of the cats fed irradiated food did.

... the same researchers since have induced neurological problems in cats at radiation levels as low as 26 kGy.

... radiation treatment did increase peroxide content in dog food, cat food and rodent food, up to 25-fold at the highest dose.

Champion Petfoods, maker of the Orijen brand [withdrew their products from Australia because]...“..fatty acids are susceptible to oxidation following irradiation. Byproducts from fatty acid oxidation, mainly free radicals, are released into the body with the potential to cause tissue damage." … “We do not believe the market to be safe unless both cat and dog foods are allowed entry without irradiation.”

Genotoxic properties of 2-dodecylcyclobutanone, a compound formed on irradiation of food containing fat. Radiation Physics and Chemistry, 52:39-42.
"When food containing fat is treated by ionizing radiation, a group of 2-alkylcyclobutanones is formed. ... In vitro experiments using rat and human colon cells indicate that 2-dodecylcyclobutanone (2-DCB)... is clearly cytotoxic and genotoxic."

Effects of irradiated sucrose on the chromosomes of human lympho]cytes in vitro. Nature, 211:1254-1255
"Irradiated sucrose solutions were extremely toxic to human white blood cells. Cell divisions were inhibited. Degenerated cell divisions were observed and the chromosomes were grossly damaged. The DNA was clumped or the chromosomes appeared shattered or pulverized.

In contrast, treatment with unirradiated sucrose at the same concentration had no apparent effect on the mitotic rate and the chromosomes were not visibly damaged."

Growth, reproduction, survival and histopathology of rats fed beef irradiated with electrons. Food Research, 20:193-214
"A considerable number of the second litter of the experimental group of rats that ate irradiated beef died. Symptoms observed were marked fluid buildup of the face, ruffled hair coat, general incoordination, spastic hopping gait, and sometimes complete loss of movement with dragging of the hind quarters. Those pups most severely affected often became completely prostrated a short time before death. In no case were these symptoms noted in the control group."

Cytotoxic and mutagenic effects of irradiated substrates and food material. Radiation Botany, 11:253-281
"Numerous studies have been carried out to ascertain whether cytotoxic effects occur when unirradiated biological test systems are cultured or fed with irradiated media or food. In such studies, adverse physiological growth retardation and inhibition, cytological cell division inhibition and chromosome aberrations and genetical effects have been observed in a wide range of test systems…"

International Journal of Radiation Biology, 18:201-216
"Feeding of mice for two months before mating with 50 percent of the standard complete diet irradiated with gamma rays provokes a significant increase of embryonal deaths, probably to be interpreted as a dominant lethal mutation associated with gross chromosomal aberrations…"

Avigrain wrote:Hi,

Dennis, the owner of Avigrain here.

Just thought I would respond to these points.

First up - our web-site needs updating. My apologies for that.

Secondly - we have dropped some products which may have been advertised - usually we give a new product six months trial and if they don;t sell then stop production.

Finally regarding imported seeds - it is a hugely difficult to import seeds - it is extremely costly and risky. We once almost lost 100 tonnes of Argentinian sunflowers which just went 'missing'. We only import seeds when there is absolutely none left in the country in order to maintain supply to breeders, the alternative is to simply close the factory and leave all breeders without feed.

Imported seeds must be sterilised but they still retain nutritional value - remember baby food is sterilised to remove pathogens. So it is not like it is dangerous to birds. So I would like to reject the proposition made by the last emailer. In 25 years we have only been forced to import three times in case of severe drought and would love it if we never have to again.

So please forgive us being slack on our web-site and promotions - marketing isn;t our strong point!

But please don;t have a go at us about importing grain - when it happens we don;t have any choice.

Feel free to ask more questions

and Happy New Year

Although locally grown seed is the best, simply because it is fresh and it sprouts and that's what we as the bird breeders are looking for, it is not to say that the quality is better, what I mean is the size of the seeds. Imported seed might be irradiated but Europeans and the Americans have been using it for ages and no one has reported anything yet that we should be aware off. I personally only use imported Niger seed simply because the fresh locally grown Niger is not always available. And Dennis, not that I'm trying to promote Avigrain, if you have to import seed why not import Perilla (white and red), Chia and the what they call the miracle seed Foniopaddy a seed that apparently controls Coccidiosis. All are available throughout the Europe, USA, Canada etc.
Wouldn't that make Avigrain stand out "head and shoulders" above the other seed merchants. Even irradiated Cannabis seed is available to the European and Americans seed merchants, many think it's a very nutritious seed but would I there suggest to try to import cannabis seed. In many countries hemp is used for a wide range of industrial products including textiles, paper, and composite wood products, oils etc, so there will always be lots of seed for export. And what about the Amaranth and the Quinoa which is already available for human consumption. If anything there is no reason why Perilla seed shouldn't be available in Australia. Irradiated or sterilized seed can contribute to birds nutrition, most breeders offer other foods as well like greens, soft food and sprouted seed.

Thanks alot Finchy, now I'm sooooooo.... confused!

Is the aim of irradiating imported seeds to simply make them sterile? Or is it to kill other nasties that may have come along for the ride?