Aussie Finch Forum

When i first started breeding goulds,i read heaps of journals and magazines,thought i would be the perfect breeder,but alas putting theory into practice is a whole new ball game.Its trial and ERROR that makes for better breeding.I also watched catalyst,then spoke to other breeders came to the same conclusion that in the wild is total different to aviary bred,any one who forces birds to bred then has a 43 per cent lose of young is doing something dramatically wrong thats not just head color ,so then that brings in their breeding capabilities and then their conculsions,but this is my opinion and ive been wrong before,also wasnt it scientist who said the world was flat. see you gary.

Actually, these studies are from both captive and wild populations, and include aviary bred individuals as well as using breeding cages. I think that the mortality rate would probably also include fertile unhatched eggs that they would have used molecular testing from the eggshell membrane to sex, but it would vary from study to study. I do think Deb has a point that different individuals behave differently, as I see that within my own experiments, as do other scientists.

Also, it was actually philosophers who began the concept of a flat Earth. By 6th century BC, Greek astronomers claimed it was a sphere.

Oh to be young ,couldnt store all that knowledge in my old brain, what puzzles me is why not print your own results,as ,you stated ,and why presume what other people have done when they write their own articles,i stated my opinion but at least they where my findings and through years of trails,hope cabinet breeding does not stress the birds to the point of changing YOUR results and look forward to reading them,cheers garyh

I'm a bit puzzled by all of your responses, Gary, which come across as quite abrasive. All I did was point out studies that have found differing results from your own. You don't appear to be attacking mattymeischke, even though he has said something similar.
In any case, when these studies are written up there is a whole section about how they carried out the experiment. As a general rule it should be written up with enough detail that someone else can replicate it.
I'm currently in the process of writing up my own reports, thank you, but they wouldn't be exactly the same as gouldians as I work with zebra finches.

Where we started was head colors and i have my opinion ,its easy to state other studies and opinions,but if these are not your own how do you put your total commitment to them,its easy to state something that is written,but you cant go past practical,what works for one does not mean it works for another,try everything ,but put your birds first and foremost because they give you the results not the people who write about them.If one of my birds is stressed im sure its not due to just head color.There are lots of good breeders of goulds ,maybe someone should sit down and LISTEN to them.I respect your opinion,if it is yours,i would much rather read something you have researched and proved than be up dated on opinion that occurs every 2 years or so.If you put the work into the birds and make them happy they will reward you three fold,and to me head color does not matter,time to go niki my finger is really sore now,wish you well with your own studies cheers garyh.

Hey, Hey, Hey,

People, settle.
Simple question, simple answer. What are normals and what isn't? No need for this pedantic show of (alleged) knowledge. For whatever its worth I couldn't give a hooters coot about studies, thesis, scientific findings because all I care is my birds are OK and isn't that all that matters? My first sentence in the first answer mentioned a "can of worms". Nothing more prophetic than that. Anyhow for what its worth when I was young I had plenty of success with yellow heads and black heads, they didn't seem to stress too much about my head colour when it came to mating, but the red heads were a different problem, but when they did, boy oh boy.

garyh wrote:... wasnt it scientist who said the world was flat.

No Gary, it was common sense that said that the world is flat. It certainly looks flat from where I'm standing. It was a scientist, however, who thought that it might not be, then demonstrated that this is the case by experiment and reasoning. Now even antiscientists seem to agree that it is round....

It has been said that when a result in science is against the received understanding, first they will say that it is against reason, then they will say that it is against God. Then they will say: "It has been known for some time that...". Results which seem to counter our experience always provoke a reaction.

Full respect for your experience, but this should not make us assume the scientists have no idea. Instead we could ask: what are you doing differently that means you have a normal sex ratio of offspring despite different head colours? If you feel the experiments have been done badly, you can repeat them and publish your results. This is how science exposes itself to criticism, and how it weeds out generalisable fact from individual experiences.

Niki K: thank you for the excerpts from those articles, which I shall have to track down. I really enjoy having a conversation about the state of the science.

Maz, I bet you dont want gouldians anymore

Yes, its fine to put different head colours together, not a problem at all, that is the short of it.
There are many breeders that prefer to keep the head colour the same for a few different reasons, all very technical as u may have read, Get the colours you want, no harm done and you may be suprised with their young when they breed for you.
All the best

WHAT The world isnt flat Well there ya go


Is all good folks .

mattymeischke wrote:

garyh wrote:... wasnt it scientist who said the world was flat.

No Gary, it was common sense that said that the world is flat. It certainly looks flat from where I'm standing. It was a scientist, however, who thought that it might not be, then demonstrated that this is the case by experiment and reasoning. Now even antiscientists seem to agree that it is round....

It has been said that when a result in science is against the received understanding, first they will say that it is against reason, then they will say that it is against God. Then they will say: "It has been known for some time that...". Results which seem to counter our experience always provoke a reaction.

Full respect for your experience, but this should not make us assume the scientists have no idea. Instead we could ask: what are you doing differently that means you have a normal sex ratio of offspring despite different head colours? If you feel the experiments have been done badly, you can repeat them and publish your results. This is how science exposes itself to criticism, and how it weeds out generalisable fact from individual experiences.

Niki K: thank you for the excerpts from those articles, which I shall have to track down. I really enjoy having a conversation about the state of the science.

Just let me know if you want me to send you any PDFs I'm currently working on trans-generational stress in zebra finches in relation to sex ratio, so have a lot of journal articles lying around my office!!
Let me point out that when I say 'stress', I'm really referring to circulating stress hormones. There may not be any visible signs of stress to the bird, even if they have increased stress hormones.