Dropped wing tips - definite meaning or generic symptom?

[Finchy]

As for the blues I beleive they also have a greater need for protein and Vitamin E. For example all of my blues are the very first birds to smash fresh (raw) egg shells.....the entire shell is consumed within a few hours.

Hi Paul. I know you said it's the last from you but I just have to quiz you on this one so I understand it correctly. You mentioned protein and vitamin E, that blues seems to need more. What has lead you to believe that? You also mention eggs shells, which are only ~4% protein and have no vitamin E, so are you saying that they go for supplements in general, or calcium, or could you please clarify what you mean?

(Oddly, I've found my purchased blues to be frustratingly disinterested in supplements. Even with gaggles of other Gouldians and Parrotfinches diving in, they never showed any interest in egg food, etc. 100% seed eaters, with supplements only deliverable via drinking water. That could be an unrelated issue though, to do with how the poor buggers were raised.)

[SamDavis]

Although I hate to knock my fellow NSW breeders, in this case I think it is true that many Victorians do have stronger blues thanks no doubt to those commenting within this thread. I know many NSW breeders (capable ones who breed all sorts of other weird stuff) who have not had great success with blues. I've only seen first hand one smaller Vic setup (AFF member), it was a wet miserable typical Melbourne day and these birds were tight feathered and brilliant (these aviaries were still well protected). In the Sydney area, blues (and often other gouldians) just sit looking sad on such days.

To cut a long story short - Finchy - why not organise to ship a few blues up from Victoria?

[Craig52]

As for the blues I beleive they also have a greater need for protein and Vitamin E. For example all of my blues are the very first birds to smash fresh (raw) egg shells.....the entire shell is consumed within a few hours.

Hi Paul. I know you said it's the last from you but I just have to quiz you on this one so I understand it correctly. You mentioned protein and vitamin E, that blues seems to need more. What has lead you to believe that? You also mention eggs shells, which are only ~4% protein and have no vitamin E, so are you saying that they go for supplements in general, or calcium, or could you please clarify what you mean?

(Oddly, I've found my purchased blues to be frustratingly disinterested in supplements. Even with gaggles of other Gouldians and Parrotfinches diving in, they never showed any interest in egg food, etc. 100% seed eaters, with supplements only deliverable via drinking water. That could be an unrelated issue though, to do with how the poor buggers were raised.)

Hi Finchy,i'm not sure what Paul feeds in the way of protein but 15-20 years ago i paired up a blue and a split in 9 seperate aviaries with 1-2 different species.As these other species were livefood eaters bush fly maggots were supplied.For some strange reason the blues ate as many maggots as i could supply for the other finches.From that stage on,i only lost 1 in 10 young at moulting stage whilst breeders i knew of were losing 100% of their young blues but not the splits.
The only thing i was feeding different to the other breeders was livefood so i'm pretty certain it was the key to survival.
There are many products available on the market now to provide protein but it's the way that it is provided to your birds whether they will eat it or not.Most finches will readily take soaked/sprouted seed and this is the perfect way to add your supplements such as insectivor powder dusted lightly over the sprouted seed,lightly at first and adding more to it as the weeks go on,same once a week with a good vitamin and mineral powder like solaminavit which is easier than providing it in water.
Yes some of this suppliment is wasted but the spouted seed is coated and has to be rolled around in the bill to be dehusked and a small amount of suppliment is swallowed.
I'm not sure what Paul is talking about with the vitamin E,they must have put their heads together to work out that it is a major part in the survival of good strong blues.
Fresh raw egg shells are supplied,not cooked so a lot more protein is eaten as albien?,not just for calcium which is all that's left if it's cooked.

Sam,until Finchy is set up properly to breed good strong blues,she needs to stay away from them as i'm sure no breeder down here will sell there stock knowing they will die,sorry to be so harsh and no more comment from me. Cheers Craig

[Finchy]

Thanks Craig, that's all really interesting. Maggots, hey? So fat, or protein, or something. And raw eggs shells, not nuked (I always thought that would be better!) Duly noted and copied to my finch files.

Too true, I would not buy more blues and risk them carking it. Definitely wouldn't ship them at this stage either. Given that I have a confirmed pair who may produce more blues, plus a couple of splits, I'll stick with those and see what happens over the Summer. I'm in no rush and won't be trying too hard - just bear in mind a few tweaks suggested by Craig and Paul and see if those have any impact.

[Finchy]

Craig, I can't find Solaminavit anywhere. Sure I've heard of it though. Do you know a supplier please?

Ta

[Craig52]

Hi Finchy,google Allfarm in Hastings Victoria,they don't advertise it but ask for the 1kg powder pack of Soluminavit,it costs around $55 delivered. Craig

[wildbill]

finchy

One way to look at a blue gouldian.........$$$$$$$$$$$$$. that's is why they use bengalese. they don't care about you ......they want your CASH! Again ...they want your CASH!
Better way to look at it. Get some good birds from some-one you can trust and work from there. In reality i couldn't care if they were cage bred or heated quarters I'd be prepared to work that one out. Maybe not with the parents but you could work with the first year young stock.
On the other hand if you have to medicate them. I'd use a stick....or maybe a throwdown. In theory if you persist all your doing is breeding drugo's who require 'ronivet or turbosole"
I wouldn't hesitate to knock off one or two of these type of birds or more. It's disapointing and depressing.There absolutely no good to you -no good to me - no good for the blue reputation.
Going back a while i had the same thing happen to a few diamonds. About 7 months of age something went wrong and within a month history. I went back through my records and rings colours etc and wiped them all out.
I could have off loaded them into the market eg gumtree or petlink and could have got some recovery money but all i'd be doing is disappointing some young bloke who got taken by some-one who should know better.
Besides I waste so much cash on cars and bikes it wasn't worth worry about and I solved the problem to boot!
Image if i had gone to the dark side when i bred the fawn pied diamond sparrows. At that stage i was well ahead of every-one. Instead of breeding quite a few i could have collected a packet load of cash. $400 in bangalese and i would have been off to trot! bring me the cash!
Rouge breeders involved are usually outright liars and pretty smart too. In fact smart enough to remove the bango's prior to the sale date. Only recently i've been told of a successful NSW gouldian breeder who had a buyer in his bird room. The breeder was called inside for one thing or another and the buyer (bored at that) leant against a closed door -it popped open and right before his eye breeding cabinet upon cabinet of bengalese.
He told me he quickly closed the door and walked to the far end of the holding room - no birds were bought!
Meanwhile my 15 young are still kicking or should i say on the perch. Look pretty good and happy with that. On the off chance if i strike a problem - and one never knows - i guess i will pick them up off the floor.
Although parents are 2 and 3 year old split blues i think trouble starts with the BLUE!

In all honesty it's been no picnic for this lot. Bad winter cold days water in cage.....love it! Treat them mean and keep them keen! lol

[gouldianpaul]

[quote="wildbill"]finchy

Rouge breeders involved are usually outright liars and pretty smart too. In fact smart enough to remove the bango's prior to the sale date. Only recently i've been told of a successful NSW gouldian breeder who had a buyer in his bird room. The breeder was called inside for one thing or another and the buyer (bored at that) leant against a closed door -it popped open and right before his eye breeding cabinet upon cabinet of bengalese.
He told me he quickly closed the door and walked to the far end of the holding room - no birds were bought!

Come on Wildbill....name the bangelese breeder!!!! Time to shame these sods and help other unsuspecting breeders....even though you didn't see them with your own eyes, if you trust the word of your friend then lets hang those bangelese breeders out to dry.

Finchy, the raw egg shells have a little egg white in the bottom...that is the protein i was talking about....my other comments about protein/vitamin E have been based on observation and trial and error.....as well as talking to and listening to breeders with proven experience......I also agree with Craig and believe you need to look at further protection for your avairies before considering buying any more blues.

Cheers
Paul

[Finchy]

My first ever blue was from a fellow named Gary in NSW, about 7 years ago. That was a long time back so I wouldn't hold anything against him. A lot can be learned and much can change in 7 years, and I've no idea what he's up to now.

My second blue didn't count - some kind of mysterious Parblue from a bird shop South of Sydney.

My third was a blue and two splits was from a fellow in Girraween, Sydney, whose name I have forgotten. He wasn't dishonest though, so I can't hold anything against him either. He was very open about using Bengalese, indoor cabinets, and often bringing the birds around with Triple Sulfa or some such thing. I was just too uninformed about blues at the time to appreciate the implications. I actually still have his splits.

My fourth blue plus a split [Read: Glutton for punishment] were more or less given to me by a very diligent breeder who was happy just to see if I could get results from them. He had bought the birds from Les Hardman in NSW, who I know nothing about personally but he came highly recommended as a blue breeder. The blue cock did very well initially then dropped suddenly over the course of a few days. I still have the split hen; she has not paired up, sulks by herself and is bald as a vulture.

My fifth and sixth were bred by...yikes...ME! Their blue genes came from the Girraween splits plus my own healthy normal and yellow stock. Still no good.

[wildbill]

birds are birds - you buy them one day and there dead the next.....on a bad day that very same day nothing much you can do about it. if in case of death a seller guarantees a replacement i'd think one of two things

1. pretty honest bloke
2. could be a problem here and some are gonna drop.

if i sold you a bird and it did snuff it i'd probably give you a replacement. where talking serious prices only -not crap! now if the bird dropped a month or two later - i'd say its your fault and bad luck!

it's pretty hard to single any-one out. this problem occurred years ago - i'd say qld - in your case you might have bumped into birds bred by bango's 5 or 10 generations back. pretty hard to back track or blame any-one.

it's a bit of a risky $$$$ bet but these blues excite me a bit. they are indeed a very nice bird to look at and there are breeders about who bred plenty of good ones. i'd like to see if i can do that. at the moment i'm more concerned about a rat attack. i've lost more from those vermin than anyone

but i will tell you what Fu---- worse You buy a porsche boxster from a --ick on sydney north shore....a one owner car that and its listed as immaculate. buy it drive it home get up the next day - oil over the garage floor. ring porsche dealer - oil seal $7k to replace gotta do the clutch too. if it totally gone a new motor $25k

never got the chance to see if it was totally gone -cashed it a week or so later! lesson to be learnt never trust those european cars or gouldian breeders with bengalese

so even though you get stung now and again it's good to be able to look back and get a laugh out of it so give them another go - buy south of the nsw border and i think you'll be fine.