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Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 10:41
by starman
Nicko,
FB was requoting Craig's previous post when she said that...perhaps you can address the question to Craig for clarification.
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 11:29
by Tiaris
For the gizzard to function properly in breaking down hard seed kernels, some hard insoluble grit is required. This is the evolved purpose of such a muscular gizzard in most granivorous birds - to grind up the hard food particles. Having said that, I have also heard of instances of crop/digestive impactions where the bird has consumed far too much grit & the digestive system becomes blocked by it & is unable to pass it through without serious adverse effect. I believe this may result from birds not having regular access to grit and then offered it out of the blue and they over-consume resulting in impaction problems. I don't believe the incidence of grit impactions is a rational reason to withhold insoluble grit supply, rather to have constant access rather than occasional offerings so the grit "binges" don't occur.
Soluble "grits" are not really grit, but rather mineral supplements - eggshell, cuttlebone, biocal, canunda shell, etc. These are not at all related to the gizzard and its digestive functions, but to supplement the diet for adequate calcium and other trace minerals for egg formation, bone/feather growth & development, etc. These mineral supplements are very important to breeding birds and their growing progeny so should also be constantly available to breeding aviaries. When birds have constant access to mineral supplements and "digestive" grits (and an otherwise healthy diet) they tend to only take these items as and when required.
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 13:13
by Greg41
Hi again Starman, I use the same method as you. Was hoping there was an easier way,I grind it down fine and add charcol, cuttlefish and usually a bought
medicated grit which is all mixed together.Have never had a problem,I reckon birds know how to look after themselves.
Cheers
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 13:46
by starman
Greg41 wrote: 15 Sep 2017, 13:13
Was hoping there was an easier way
Greg, I have seen references to people using mechanical and electric grinders for oyster shell (on this forum), but I haven't been able to ascertain the size of the end product. I should imagine that using a coffee grinder on something as hard as oyster shell would reduce its life dramatically. Seeing I have so few birds I'm reluctant to 'splash any cash' for experimentation. Perhaps some one who has gone down this path previously could enlighten us a little.
But, in the meantime, back to the grindstone....
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 14:26
by Greg41
I bought my wife a new Food Processor a short while ago [after I used/abused the other trying to crush oyster shell] I now use an old dolly pot from my prospecting days, I don't have too many birds either, I priced out a Rock Crusher [$1500.00] but way to expensive for the small amount I need.
Cheers.
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 17:37
by Craig52
Thank you for clarifying that for me/us Tiaris. I did leave out the compaction to the crop that can happen to newly purchased birds that have been starved of grit but this is very rare in Australia due to most of our finches being bred in open aviaries with sand/gravel/ earthen floors. Cheers Craig
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 18:38
by STUART WHITING
Tiaris wrote: 15 Sep 2017, 11:29
For the gizzard to function properly in breaking down hard seed kernels, some hard insoluble grit is required. This is the evolved purpose of such a muscular gizzard in most granivorous birds - to grind up the hard food particles. Having said that, I have also heard of instances of crop/digestive impactions where the bird has consumed far too much grit & the digestive system becomes blocked by it & is unable to pass it through without serious adverse effect. I believe this may result from birds not having regular access to grit and then offered it out of the blue and they over-consume resulting in impaction problems. I don't believe the incidence of grit impactions is a rational reason to withhold insoluble grit supply, rather to have constant access rather than occasional offerings so the grit "binges" don't occur.
Soluble "grits" are not really grit, but rather mineral supplements - eggshell, cuttlebone, biocal, canunda shell, etc. These are not at all related to the gizzard and its digestive functions, but to supplement the diet for adequate calcium and other trace minerals for egg formation, bone/feather growth & development, etc. These mineral supplements are very important to breeding birds and their growing progeny so should also be constantly available to breeding aviaries. When birds have constant access to mineral supplements and "digestive" grits (and an otherwise healthy diet) they tend to only take these items as and when required.
Thank you for yer input Tiaris, very informative and to be perfectly honest I very much agree with what you say, I'm still a little optimistic about the insoluble grit, I never used to be but because of the X Ray evidence that I've now seen in black & white I'm now really in a dilemma about the issue,
I'm personally at the present not giving hard mineral insoluble grit but I am giving the crushed oyster shell and grated cuttlefish mixed in with the oyster shell and all of me birds do eat this as they've always done,
Whether they eat this to aid digestion aswell I couldn't really say but being informed by we'll known avian vets here in England and America they seem to say that small seed eaters don't actually need the grit to aid digestion because all of the seed is de husked and is then soft enough once shelled,
Maybe a different story if the seed was swallowed whole but it's not.
Would be very good if we could get some real hard plain evidence on this matter but I feel we could be going round in circles for some time yet
What would make me feel happier is a full explanatory PDF file or similar from some we'll known avian vets or very high up bird / finch experts like Mike fidler, Marcus pollard and Bill van patten or such like and see what they think
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 18:45
by STUART WHITING
Craig52 wrote: 15 Sep 2017, 17:37
Thank you for clarifying that for me/us Tiaris. I did leave out the compaction to the crop that can happen to newly purchased birds that have been starved of grit but this is very rare in Australia due to most of our finches being bred in open aviaries with sand/gravel/ earthen floors. Cheers Craig
Now that's very interesting Craig, yes this I could fully understand as some of the evidence of such cases that I've seen is perhaps newly purchased birds that have not already been introduced to grit, of course I suppose if they were to gourge themselves on it then this in affect could cause the crop compaction, this would make sense
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 19:31
by nicko
Hmmmm - think I'll just do as I'm doing whether right or wrong. But interesting reading
Re: grit
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 20:26
by starman
[quote="STUART WHITING" Wrote:
What would make me feel happier is a full explanatory PDF file or similar from some we'll known avian vets or very high up bird / finch experts like Mike fidler, Marcus pollard and Bill van patten or such like and see what they think
[/quote]
Hi Stuart...
Most of the long standing AFF forum members have the advantage of knowing the identities of those giving their opinions and knowledge here. I, like you, am relatively new here but I've quickly been able to assess the weight of respect afforded to our more experienced contributors. I'm sure that when you've been here a little longer you will agree with me when I suggest that you could include Tiaris in the company of those esteemed finch experts named in the last line of your post.