Aussie Finch Forum

Surely we can also put forward our views and discuss with and respond to other people's contributions on all matters on the forum. Isn't that the purpose of a forum?

Nope folks seems that having an opinion on here lately just means nastiness and subtle and not so subtle put downs .

Yes even I have been muted and dare not say fully , what I would like to simply because I just do not need the back lash.

And no I dont care to be ridiculed for saying what I just did but some one had to say it ..... it has got to the point that some people are asking questions in private .

Yes even me .

Think about it folks , we are a friendly forum .

And I am not pointing fingers either ...

Don't worry Toothless - I can take it and I don't mind my musings being scrutinized. I would never advocate the uncontolled release of birds to just anyone that claims to be an expert or a legitimate zoo owner for that matter. I do however question the very premisce that prohibition and destruction eliminate the risk of illegal imports since it actively selects for those that would smuggle and creates the criminal that would not have been there if a resonable alternative was available. I won't attest for the pet-owner but aviculturists are generally responsible people that aren't going to release red-billed quela (especially at the cost to import them) or dispose of, or purchase, expensive birds without examining the health of the birds. Everything is a risk but why the controlled import of healthy exotic birds represent more of a risk to biosecurity than other taxa can't be logically justified.

Aynway we'd better quit before we get locked but you can alyways PM me!

jusdeb wrote:Nope folks seems that having an opinion on here lately just means nastiness and subtle and not so subtle put downs .

you mean like this:

jusdeb wrote:Perhaps if Govt positions were filled by people qualified to fulfill the job description instead of dills just going through the ranks then decisions might be made based on a different perspective.

Tiaris and Greg - thankyou for a so far respectful, healthy debate. i also have no problems with line by line scrutiny of my comments as none of them are thoughtless and all of them open to being questioned. its actually something i very much enjoy on forums - the ability to be able to take turns to make very clear articulate micro responses to one another without the interjection that gets in the way of real time verbal debates.

i think the important thing here is to not misinterpret a difference of opinion, albeit sometimes a fierce one, as disrespectful or offensive. it very often isn't. i don't take different views as personal attacks. if i did i wouldn't have the eclectic group of friends i so cherish. i do however find it particularly frustrating when (as i have experience on other forums) threads get locked simply because some members are engaged in a debate and a moderator freaks out with no thought as to whether said debate has actually turned foul or personal.

here we have the three main voices expressing that they are just fine with this discussion and eachother - so hopefully this or similarly respectful future disagreements are welcome here. i for one find it interesting and informative.

toothlessjaws wrote:

australian aviculture, as you well know is full of exporters, mutation breeders, selfish hoarders, fads, hybridisers and most of all monetary transactions. whilst there are always some very genuinely respectable breeders there is always a lot more who are not. that is NOT an appropriate community to be entrusting endangered species. ZAA zoos are a far more appropriate place. zoos rely on the private sector for exotic avicultural stock because they are forced to. likewise they may not have written the handbook on finches but again that doesn't mean those that did have a right to opportunistically profit from another's smuggling attemp

If many private breeders are all that you claim then why we do we still have so many species available ? I think many of the respectable
private breeders would run rings around a lot of zoo staff and the facilities on offer for the birds.Are zoos really "forced" to purchase birds privately ?.As for fads what happens when zoos change curators ???????

Tiaris wrote:Surely we can also put forward our views and discuss with and respond to other people's contributions on all matters on the forum. Isn't that the purpose of a forum?

Nothing wrong with healthy debate !!!!! this is how things are learned, as long as no one is ridiculed or belittled for there opinion there is not a problem. This topic is bird related so it has a place on the Forum. Cheers Buzz
My comment is not directed at you Tiaris (It's just your comment summed up what was being said) or any one in particular.

I not only quite enjoy debates which address real topics of interest but really believe that they can greatly assist those who are casually observing an issue to have the full width views put before them so that they can make their own fully informed opinion based on these and their own experiences & understanding of the matter. I think difference of opinion is very healthy as long as all arguments have some rational merit which I reckon they certainly have so far. If we all plodded along in exactly the same direction, life would be very drab.

I also would like to think that the majority of aviculturists are respectable and those who are not are in the minority.

desertbirds wrote: If many private breeders are all that you claim then why we do we still have so many species available ?

because there are a some that are fantastic. but in any event my point was not that most private aviculturists are irresponsible. but that many are. and as you well know - you only need a couple to completely stuff it up for everyone.

desertbirds wrote:I think many of the respectable private breeders would run rings around a lot of zoo staff and the facilities on offer for the birds.

very possibly. more to do with the unpopularity of birds with the public in zoos than anything else. i know of some very talented aviculturalists at Heallesville sanctuary however who are doing a wonderful job with the helmeted honeyeaters and orange bellied parrots. its a pity more aviculturalists don't want to have professional careers at zoos. the massive advantage ZAA statutory zoos have over private individuals however is co-operation with other zoos and government agencies, experience with program management and the ability to link CBP's with insitu conservation efforts among others.

desertbirds wrote:Are zoos really "forced" to purchase birds privately ?.As for fads what happens when zoos change curators ???????

good point - you are saying that they could take a much more proactive role in breeding exotics for themselves if they wanted too? yes this is totally true.

however "who's better at breeding" is not actually a factor in why i think confiscated birds should go to ZAA zoos instead of the public. the issues i have raised are enough for me to favour zoos.

as for your comment regarding fads and the change of zoo curators. you are SPOT ON. without doubt the biggest problem with zoos. every time a new curator comes along a new set of priorities comes into play (half of them half baked and ineffective). if you want me to go on a tirade about all the things useless about zoos i am more than happy to. there is lots of room for improvement there. they arn't even close top reaching their potential. some of them are really picking up with their native breeding programs (which after all should always be the priority). Zoos Vic are really starting to see the potential of heallesville and have been taking on new programs for obscure rare species at an amazing rate.

Well said.