After separeted i noticed...

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Stavros01
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Joined: 14 Sep 2011, 07:19
Location: Portugal

natamambo wrote:I've googled this for hours, as my family comes from Vanuatu and so it caught my interest as a topic given Henry's comments. I have no memory of seeing parrot finches when travelling there but we were more intent on getting around the villages catching up with folk (and it was over 20 years ago, I did not know much about finches then, more of a parrot person). However...cyanofrons have been recorded on Santo which is only 20 miles or so from where my family lived so it is possible.

Anyway, all I could find was that they differed from the Aussie form in that they had more blue "on the vertex". They appeared on a stamp in 1981. My stamp collection is in a box somewhere but pictures on the web of the stamp show it as having more blue under the beak / on the chin (which would be consistent with the "cyanofrons" which translated literally from the Latin means "blue front". Henry, (said very nicely) check your book again and make sure it is cyanfrons you are describing.

I reckon that the bird/s may well be carrying genes as a result of hybrisation somewhere back in the past.

This image
Image
from this site http://www.arkive.org/red-eared-parrotf ... 73513.html certainly shows a bird with much less red than normal for this species which may suggest some variation occurs naturally.


I reckon that the bird/s may well be carrying genes as a result of hybrisation somewhere back in the past. This image
Image
comes from this website http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php ... &view=next
and the owner states it is a red / blue hybrid.

And is not the first bird, a Coloria???


Gustavo
natamambo
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Location: Melbourne

Yes Gustavo it is, sorry if my statement was confusing. I was saying it had much less colour than many other colerias not that it was something else.

As to your other question, is it hybridisation when it's between subspecies. Technically I guess the answer is yes even though it does occur in the wild.

The Adelaide Rosella, once thought to be a separate species, is a fully fertile hybrid of the Yellow and Crimson Rosellas which for some strange reason only hybridise in one part of their overlapping range. Adelaides will seek out Adelaides and they are in big numbers locally with enormous colour variation, as you would expect in a hybrid. It is evidence like this that makes think that one of yours is a hybrid.

In reality all you can do is wait for them to fully colour up and then you may have a clearer picture of what you have but it seems early indications are you have at least one bird (parent) with hybrid genes in it.

What parrot finches are common in your part of the world? Which combinations are likely to produce the colouring you have? It seems to me you need to create a matrix of all the available red based birds and all the available blue based birds and go from there. In the end though it may all be conjecture and you'll never really know for sure.
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finches247
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No sorry dont have a photo just a description of subspecies but when they imported species they caught any they could find males,females,natural hybrids and unsexed so the blues in portugal will have many subspecies mixed together over time so wont be pure subspecies the cyanfrons could have came out after time
henry
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finches247
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Apologies its spelt cyanofrons and subspecies located on Lifou and Maré on New Calendonia as well as Vanuatu
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GregH
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Location: Chapel Hill, Brisbane Qld

There are various levels of hybridisation from very wide intergeneric and interspecific crosses right down to a cross between two inbred sister lines. Most modern aviculturists are driven by two antagonistic imperatives: 1, maintain a diverse genetic base within a captive species and 2, maintain distinct geographic races and forms. The former requires that as wide a cross possible is made and latter requires that you restrict matings to genotypes that naturally occur together. In Australia many of our foreign species have a very limited gene pool and we've had to turn a blind-eye to the idea of genetic integrity or risk losing not just the subspecies but the entire species so there has to be some degree of pragmatism but I know there are some here that would disagree.

I don't know about the different subspecies of the BFPF but I'd not be surprised it the hybrid with the RFPF is fertile so I wouldn't go about creating them without good reason and the hybrid progeny should never be allowed to breed and contaminate the gene-pool of either species.
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Netsurfer
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Location: Sydney, NSW

Hey guys it seems to me you are trying to condone and justify hybridizing in captivity by using words " natural hybrids" or "it occurs in the wild" etc. Stavros how can you possibly go to sleep knowing the birds you have in your possession are not the real thing.

As for the BFPF subspecies in captivity; We have so little to go by, all the subspecies are almost identical, there is however some differences in size and color-shade of some subspecies but the same difference occurs within the same subspecies. Therefore the only sure ID would be if one knew where they came from.

Mount Katanglad Parrot Finches were selling at the bird markets in Europe for about the same price as the RFPF ~$50 - $100 a pair when I was there. They are not uncommon as you say, but possibly in Portugal!

I know we did have the Fijian Parrot Finches (Peales Parrot Finch), Pin Tailed and the Bamboo Parrot Finches here in Australia but cannot say if anyone is still keeping them, and recently I read there were some Royal Parrot Finches as well in Australian Aviculture. Most of these birds are very common in European Aviculture except for the Pink-billed and the Royals.
Most are very easy to breed I bred more then 70 (various species) so far this season from only 3 pairs!

Here are some links with photos of most species.

Royal Parrot Finches - http://users.skynet.be/fa398872/enroyal.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Parrot Finches Species - http://users.skynet.be/fa398872/navfram.en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Parrot Finches Species - http://birdsandaviary.tr.gg/Papagan-isp ... es-k2-.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note: Peales Parrot Finches have several subspecies scattered throughout the islands and Royal Parrot Finch is one of them.
natamambo
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Location: Melbourne

Netsurfer, I'm not condoning deliberate hybridisation at all - far from it. Just pointing out that some species don't seem to care as much as we do. I'm quite sure overlaps and interbreeding are more common than we pigeon-holing humans like to think given that many subspecies have minute regional differences - such as the BFPF where factors like diet can influence both size and colour but because it's from a different island we call it a subspecies. Now we're crossing over to population genetics where you could argue race vs subspecies with as much fervour as whether carbon dioxide causes global warming (or is that climate change?). Josef Mengele eat your heart out!
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Stavros01
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Joined: 14 Sep 2011, 07:19
Location: Portugal

Netsurfer wrote:Hey guys it seems to me you are trying to condone and justify hybridizing in captivity by using words " natural hybrids" or "it occurs in the wild" etc. Stavros how can you possibly go to sleep knowing the birds you have in your possession are not the real thing.

As for the BFPF subspecies in captivity; We have so little to go by, all the subspecies are almost identical, there is however some differences in size and color-shade of some subspecies but the same difference occurs within the same subspecies. Therefore the only sure ID would be if one knew where they came from.

Mount Katanglad Parrot Finches were selling at the bird markets in Europe for about the same price as the RFPF ~$50 - $100 a pair when I was there. They are not uncommon as you say, but possibly in Portugal!

I know we did have the Fijian Parrot Finches (Peales Parrot Finch), Pin Tailed and the Bamboo Parrot Finches here in Australia but cannot say if anyone is still keeping them, and recently I read there were some Royal Parrot Finches as well in Australian Aviculture. Most of these birds are very common in European Aviculture except for the Pink-billed and the Royals.
Most are very easy to breed I bred more then 70 (various species) so far this season from only 3 pairs!

Here are some links with photos of most species.

Royal Parrot Finches - http://users.skynet.be/fa398872/enroyal.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Parrot Finches Species - http://users.skynet.be/fa398872/navfram.en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Parrot Finches Species - http://birdsandaviary.tr.gg/Papagan-isp ... es-k2-.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note: Peales Parrot Finches have several subspecies scattered throughout the islands and Royal Parrot Finch is one of them.

Hi Netsurfer

you seem very concerned about the way i sleep :twisted: :twisted:
And how can you acuse me for having birds, as you say and i quote: "are not the real thing"
Did you read all the tópic?? Did you??
Did you see the fotos i posted of the parents of the first two chics??
So if you did, your comentary is sad because they are not hibrids by all the reasons i have explain before.

Now, my question was, and since there are so many sub species of Blue Faced, and since i do not know how to distinguish them, if it was possible that two diferent sub species could the parents be and cause this strange marks.

I do conden hybridisation and unfortenatly we, in Portugal, have a lot of that. Ussualy they desive young breeders with this type of birds.


Regards
Gustavo
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Netsurfer
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Joined: 30 Jun 2010, 10:30
Location: Sydney, NSW

natamambo wrote:Netsurfer, I'm not condoning deliberate hybridisation at all - far from it. Just pointing out that some species don't seem to care as much as we do. I'm quite sure overlaps and interbreeding are more common than we pigeon-holing humans like to think given that many subspecies have minute regional differences - such as the BFPF where factors like diet can influence both size and colour but because it's from a different island we call it a subspecies. Now we're crossing over to population genetics where you could argue race vs subspecies with as much fervour as whether carbon dioxide causes global warming (or is that climate change?). Josef Mengele eat your heart out!
Where their range overlaps some species do interbreed like for example in Central America Pine Siskins and Black-capped Siskins and probably other Siskins like where the range of the Hooded Siskins and Yarrell's Siskin overlaps in Northern Brazil. Also subspecies of Goldfinches throughout the Europe and Asia. But just like you, I wouldn't even think that this justifies what some people do in Aviculture. I am glad we don't have five subspecies of the American "Black-backed Siskins" or as some call it "American Lesser Goldfinches", like they have in Netherlands and Germany. We just wouldn't be able to maintain the five subspecies, in some cases it is difficult to maintain 2 subspecies like for example the Indian and Chinese Strawberries. We now only have one, called "Strawberries".
Stavros01 wrote: you seem very concerned about the way i sleep :twisted: :twisted:
And how can you acuse me for having birds, as you say and i quote: "are not the real thing"
Did you read all the tópic?? Did you??
Did you see the fotos i posted of the parents of the first two chics??
So if you did, your comentary is sad because they are not hibrids by all the reasons i have explain before.

Now, my question was, and since there are so many sub species of Blue Faced, and since i do not know how to distinguish them, if it was possible that two diferent sub species could the parents be and cause this strange marks.

I do conden hybridisation and unfortenatly we, in Portugal, have a lot of that. Ussualy they desive young breeders with this type of birds.

Regards
Gustavo
I am not accusing you of anything Stavros01, it is obvious they are not "the real thing" otherwise they wouldn't throw out young as in your photos. I have never seen or heard of anything like that happening and I have been breeding finches for many years.

I bought a hen RFPF a year ago, it's an excellent breeder but it has just a touch of shade of sea green and it bothers me every time I see that, however she hasn't produced a single sea green young yet. If I had birds like yours I'd get rid them immediately otherwise "I couldn't sleep" :irked: because of that. If your sleeping is fine, well that's fine with me! :)
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Stavros01
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Location: Portugal

Well, i do not know what you meen with "get rid of them" but shorly i am not going to kill them, sell them or put them to fly away.
It is a strange comentary for someone o says that breed for so many years :eh: :eh:

So, i am going to wait all the time i need, for them take the final step to became adult birds. Then we will see in what type of birds they became and even if they are "alien" birds i will keep them with me, forever.


Best regards
Gustavo
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