Aussie Finch Forum

It seems to me this is a pretty deep topic and there are going to be a lot of opinions around it, but I am really trying to find the middle ground for what is practical / sensible to do, most of the time! On the one hand there seems to be the "molly coddle" camp with a really cautious approach to every precious little thing, and on the other is the "tough love" champions where if it gets fed and watered and doesn't make it you didn't want it! For me I want to be somewhere in between, but am having trouble finding the balance. Plus obviously this is really a topic about overall strategy in finch keeping, not just when something has already gone wrong.

The thing is there is a heap of really good quality info around, here and elsewhere - but I am yet to find a coherent balanced view around strategies that adds up to an "owner's bible" of bird keeping rather than a lot of isolated but excellent info. Even Russell Kingston's enormous book (which I have) is only loosely helpful in this regard. This forum is mature enough and has the breadth and depth to tackle the topic, but do we have the appetite to do so? If so I am basically suggesting creating the king of stickies (like a wiki, and possibly an actual wiki!), give it some structure and make contributions to it from the existing and new content around this forum. If this were to succeed, it would be a massive contribution to the world of finchkeeping and obviously be picked up far and wide. I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to do either, although definitely take a bit of effort from a few good finchers.

I started this topic with the intention of telling the tale of my recently departed masked grassfinches, my most expensive birds to date at $95 a pair, and looking for advice re that. But I have soon realised what is actually going on is I am blundering through a fairly complex topic, making my own (sometimes poor) choices along the way, and not really having a clue which bits are REALLY important, which bits are "it depends" important, and which bits are namby pamby bs in the scheme of things. I mean no disrespect for any author as we all have a right to our own opinions (as long as no puppies are harmed!) and get it right / wrong and learn (or not!) as the case may be, and NONE of us are right all the time. But experience is a useful guide and a lot of people round here have it in spades. For instance viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11609 is a beautiful topic that I only have half a clue what to do with the content, I don't doubt the excellent info in there for a minute, but remain as a new born babe wrt what to actually DO with much of the content in a practical application sense.

What actually happens is we get the "I wants" to keep finches, hopefully build an aviary before buying the birds, kit it out with "stuff", put birds in it and stand back and enjoy the fruits of our labors. Then we head off down the happy journey of bird ownership, when of course, STUFF HAPPENS. Mostly good stuff, sometimes not. But a lot of the outcomes are anchored to what we actually do, plus of course dependent on issues around location, aviary construction, birds selected, management regime, external factors / events and good 'ol fashioned luck - some of which we make ourselves. There are a lot of traps along the way - and I am a bit over falling in them! I am not helping myself in that, in truth, I have bitten off rather a lot in one go - too much some would (and do!) say - but I am stubborn enough and have the aptitude to make a decent go of it regardless of the apparent obstacles. However a lot of what I am doing is learning stuff other people know.

Having got to the point of owning birds there are three basic health issues to deal with:
1) What to REALLY do when purchasing new stock? ie quarantine procedures (or lack thereof!)
2) What to REALLY do to look after the ongoing health of the birds? ie what medications, when and how?
3) What to REALLY do when things go wrong? ie hospital cage and strategy to manage
4) When we have an answer to the above, where do you get it? (it is high time a basic bird management / medication kit was available to any licence holder without veterinary input)
I am trying to get an emphasis on the REAL stuff, not the "shoulda's", "oughta's" or "gunna's". Pretty much a "Where is the middle ground for sensible bird management, and how far / when might a prudent owner deviate from that?" style of thinking. Also I am approaching the topic from an aviary perspective where catching the birds is just not gunna happen unless they are sick. Obviously smaller cages where they can be caught makes different things possible.

Rightio, back to the grass finches. Whilst most of my birds are plainly really happy with their lot, my recent decisions cost a couple of masked grassfinches their life. Sure I could partially blame the seller (Andrew's Bird & Pet Palace) as he did manage to set them up to fail via the stress the birds (I presume) must have endured in their trip from Sydney to Cessnock bird sale where I bought them, but the reality is a pair of apparently healthy birds were given to me and I could have most likely prevented their demise had I made different choices. The fact that the other 19 pairs I have did go through the same process without problem is still a feeble excuse on my behalf! FYI the rest are: from Gunnedah sale: 7 gouldian, 2 painted, 4 double bar, 2 yel star, 3 bfpf, 2 seagreens, 2 cordon bleu, 4 ruddy, 3 canaries, 3 king quail; from Cessnock sale: 2 orange breasts, 2 red star, 2 plumhead, 1 canary. The other "missing" birds are a gouldian (coccidiosis - autopsied), a bfpf (butcher bird) & 2 quail (drowned).

What happened is I got the birds home by midday and gave them veta's all wormer immediately then put the holding cage in the main aviary the next morning around 8am and all the other birds (without exception I think) came down for a sticky beak. After two hours the rest lost interest - except the female canaries that were really excited about the new boy and couldn't keep their eyes off him, I opened the door and they progressively flew out, after which a few of the locals went in for a rummage around in the carry cage in case they had missed anything important which the rf cordies were sure they must've. I have some pics of the grassfinches from soon after they were out, which may be interesting with hindsight as they don't actually look all that well and I didn't pick it:
That was Sunday about 10am. MY problem with lengthy quarantine is I feel mean to the birds depriving them of a happy environment where they can get on with doing what birds LURVE to do, namely forage and flit about. Sounds like tough love approach but actually the opposite, poorly applied maybe!

Anyway on Thursday I was stuffing round sorting the fountain so it wouldn't block with seed husks and noticed one masked running round on the ground and fairly bedraggled. Easily caught and stuck it straight in the hospital cage for warmth . Almost for sure the other one was already dead then but I didn't find it until the following Saturday. The reason is I was looking round for the partner to the first one to give it some company but couldn't see it. Had a casual look on Thursday and a really good look on Friday but no sign of it.

The sick bird hung on until the following Monday and then expired. As it happened I took some pics 4 hours before it died, as follows:
No idea what happened to its right eye or when, there was nothing in the cage it could injure itself on! One thing I have been wondering now is whether this was a parasite? You can see in the standing photo there is a thin thread hanging out of it's eye, and in the holding photo another one hanging out of its mouth. They looked like extremely fine hairs and I remember pulling them off as if they were just stuck to the bird, and casually wondering where they came from, but not much else and they were easy to remove. The one in the mouth didn't go far (or snapped off easily) and I just assumed this was fluff blowing around from somewhere. But maybe two means "not a coincidence"?

I suspect my hospital cage is not quite good enough. I have a 7W terrarium mat in the base, under the thin (cornflake packet) cardboard liner and the thermometer I have near the bottom typically shows 23 or 24 deg C. The recommendation is for 29 deg C but I figure the bird often squats on the floor so it will be warmer, and certainly warm enough, but I might be wrong! Otherwise it has feed in a dispenser and on the floor, plus the veta vitamin & mineral supplement. This bird got medicated with double strength coccivet (as the seller had mentioned in passing this is what you needed to do when the birds got coccidiosis) for 4 days then I swapped that for baycox for one day until it expired. The reason for using these medications was that the symptoms seemed remarkably similar to the Gouldian that did have coccidiosis, but the gouldian only got correct dosage coccivet and still expired from the condition after a few days. So then I found out about baycox and did the flock. The grassfinch also picked up the same matting around the vent so I gave it a warm water rinse under the tap which the bird seemed to be fine with, even liked! On the day it died it had much less matting and I thought it was on the improve, but of course it could have just been shutting down too.

Anyone still awake after reading that lot? love to know your opinions / further q's. Thank you. (I do have pics of the first dead bird but it was wet through so doubt any use).

Vince...

1/ Before buying any birds I stand back a few meters and watch them as Birds are very good at hiding illnesses (easy prey for predators.)
2/If bringing them any distance I always put a light cover over cage as well as spark or equivalent in the water
3/Don't worm birds straight away extra stress they don't need
4/Quarantine is a must (whether you like it or not you dont know where or what these birds were subjected too)Also they may have something that will kill your whole flock.
5/Again stand back a few meters and watch, once they settle down you will be able to pick any that are not well and put them straight into a hospital cage
6/Worming etc I wait till poop samples are done.

Others have other ideas this is how I do it with minimal losses..

Cheers Dave

Also Dont always blame the seller as Masks, Diamonds, and Plumheads as well as a couple of others are prone to scouring when moving.
As for your Pic of the eye on the Mask it looks like a seed husk where bird has wiped itself or its eye has been weeping and a seed husk has stuck to the eye...

Cheers Dave

the double strength coccivet would be a worry for me as would medicating birds so soon after they were subject to the stress of travel. I lost a parrot finch following treatment for coccidiosis after it travelled interstate. My ignorance, deceased bird!!. Just a thought.

My own rule is not to buy birds from people that have heaters in there aviaries or fully ensclosed all year round as they are generally weak.I only fully enclose mine from Mid May to End of August as gets 120km winds in winter and very heavy rain and bad frosts where i live in winter only then its all sunny and dry in summer,autumn and spring.

I have no issue with the seller. Whether he did or did not significantly contribute to the issue he sure didn't do so deliberately. And I could (presumably) have sorted it if I did it different. Mind you, on the other hand today (two weeks after purchsase) I see the plumbheads are a-courting at full tilt, the red stars have so got themselves to king of the roost status and are picking nests, the orange breasts are still over the moon about all the hiding places for little birds and (I think) are nest building, and the new boy canary's skills with his throat have got the other bloke to pick his game up more than 50% to the absolute delight of the girls (and their captors who do like the new found whistling competition that is going on in full swing). So there is a bit of a "scorched earth" tough love policy going on here - if they were meant to survive, they will - and they do!!!!

Anyway I rang the seller to find out what he thought might have been going on, purely to learn something not to have a go in any way. I wondered if they had been indoor birds and I stuck them outside, for instance. That wasn't it, Andy felt there was no reason they wouldn't have been hardy. So then he tells me his recipe for dealing with new birds, it was this:
3 days on Sparks (a mineral electrolyte, a lot like any sports drink you can buy for people apparently)
2 days soluvet liquid vitamins
3-5 days baycox or coccivet (prefer baycox)
2 days worm them
2 days of probotics

I actually had the last two items written down the other way round, but that couldn't possibly be right!

I didn't know about Sparks and now have some Veta Sparks on order, along with their Avian Insect Liquidator and Probotic. Which by the way I found best pricing from http://www.onlinepetcart.com.au. I am still looking for S76 without luck and awaiting a response from Auspigeonco about moxidectin. I didn't bother with the soluvet as I have been using Veta's D NutriCal and the new egg & biscuit mix and figured that's enough supplement (and forgot to mention before).

I am also wondering what is involved in poop samples, and I don't know what "scouring" is. More ignorance on my part! Plus when a long time breeder basically says a known product like coccivet needs to be used above label to get the result how would I know? Certainly my prior experience was that it DIDN'T get the result when properly applied so I was prepared to be a believer, maybe the medication was unable to except in particular circumstances? Dunno, does anyone? or are we all tarred by our most recent experiences and the fact that the causal and biomedical stuff behind the issues are really complex and getting any particular outcome is a jag that then reinforces our maybe now misguided beliefs?

Let me be clear, whilst I might waffle on about "big picture" stuff in the OP what I am really trying to find out is what the quarantine procedure should really be (Andy's list or something else), what should be done on an ongoing maintenance basis, and what needs to be done when a bird / birds appear listless and I DON'T believe the smartest answer is to run to a vet in the first instance (despite there may be a good case for that view!). I am trying to separate out the "oughta" stuff to the stuff that MUST happen (and if it is "run to a vet" I need to "get" that), and where the line is for the "you'll possibly get a benefit, maybe take a risk - but low percentage chance of either, definitely spend some money - and can do without it or not as you wish" stuff is at. Maybe should start 3 topics (after checking closely that they are not dealt with coherently already) but my aim is to see one or more sticky's giving the "you need to know this" summary of the health care regime topic/s.

Quite separately I think there is also a need to make it easy for finchies to get set up to be responsible "parents" without the high degree of difficulty that seems to be the case now. If we should all be using Baycox, moxidectin and / or S76 on a regular basis, plus gawd knows what else (probably all of this stuff viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11609), the mere ownership of a bird keepers licence should be sufficient to get these products and they should be available as a starter kit and top-ups to suit. Sure we can all "beat our way to an answer" but what will ACTUALLY happen is, if it ain't easy, a lot will not bother and just accept the casualty rates for what they are. If it was easier to get to a "good carer" place a whole lot more would be doing it than undoubtedly is the case now. I am just saying both the knowledge and the tools are pretty difficult to glean from the current situation and we (the royal "we") know enough to do so much better!

A few comments.
If I have miss read your posts then you can correct me.
Firstly ,if the dealer follows those steps I am rather amazed,I didn't think bird dealers were that interested and that willing to do the work.
If I am wrong I am sorry.
Once again I ASK Why do people dose/medicate their birds as soon as they get them.
Who's to say that the bird wasn't wormed before you got it,infact who's to say it had worms etc AT ALL.
It matters how birds are handled either at a sale ,shop or backyard;when they have been picked up,how and when released,was water easily available
on release and so on.Even in your own words you say the dealer worms his birds(not convinced though) so why do it again.
The more handling/disruption/over medication will tip birds over,some species more than others.
You bring new birds home what do you do,
Firstly they must be released into some where that is well protected,so much so that the bird doesn't have to search for a sheltered spot.
Next make sure that there is easy access to water(maybe a little spark mixed in),there can be seed spead on the floor but water is so important obviously to stop dehydration but just as important to aide the breaking down of the seed so it can be digested.
Keep it as quiet as possible,don't keep disturbing them,just leave them alone to feed/drink/preen their feathers.The next day will tell you how good they are going by the activity and actions.
On getting home and the bird looks seedy/stressed, Warmth,Seed and Water (with spark etc)and QUIET,QUIET put it in a hospital cage or a cage near a warm area,turn the cage so it faces away from activity and DON'T keep sticking your face in and checking it as you are most likely stressing it more.
If you have to check it often then stand a small mirror up so you can peep at it.Constant checking won't make it get any better.The best remedy is quiet/warmth so it will calm down.It is just common sense.
If a human goes into shock/stressed what do the medico's do.Warmth,Quiet at first before any medication is considered.
As I mentioned earlier some species stress easier than others so be aware of that,be for warned
If people don't agree please let me know.

Vince, in an earlier post you said that you arrived at the sale with "an all wire budgie cage covered by a jumper".
If you then proceeded to buy a dozen or more birds during the sale and loaded them all into this cage, I believe this may be where your problems began.
I suggest you buy yourself a good fully enclosed (Dark) low ceiling multi compartment transport cage. Masks are a very nervious bird and I think stress will have been the greatest contributor to their demise.
I am not necessarily an advocate of dealers, but I think the inference that Andrews contributed to the deaths is a bit tough.

Thanks E Orix, now that sounds like good sense to me. I also lean to the "tough love" side - not sure if that term is a useful descriptor but it maybe means "as far from namby-pamby as possible". "Killing them with kindness and good intentions" may be the concept I am grasping for. I am forever having to remind my wife that dogs don't think like people, and it is the same for birds!

What trips me up is when is a bird stressed .vs. sick - after all they are such good "hiders" of their issues. With good 'ol hindsight the grass finches looked a bit unhappy immediately after release and, if I had done what you sensibly suggested I would have picked it and not let that pair go. Of course as likely as not it was me hitting them with wormout gel that pushed them over the edge for stress. Why did I do that? Because the collective advice here and elsewhere is you are a fool if you don't worm new birds when you get them. So I put that one in the "musts". Seems improperly so.

Intuitively, when I brought the main batch of birds from Gunnedah I let them go in the new aviary and let them settle for a while. I felt guilty NOT getting in to worming them immediately, but after a week and a half thought everything looked pretty stable and gave them the wormout. Hmmm, I would need to go check the timing, but that would be about when the gouldian went over the edge and started to succumb to coccidiosis which, as I recollect, took about 10 days to knock her over after first symptoms. Yes, checked timing - bought them 31/03/12, she died 24/04/12. Wormed around 10/04/12 for 3 days and symptoms (which I saw but didn't recognise for about 3 days) started around 14/04/12 and she died 10 days later. Coincidence? Probably not! But vulnerable to jumping to conclusions also. The other 7 birds from the same seller were just fine and still are.

The emphasis on water is certainly born out by my own experience, and remember the term "bird brained" didn't come from nowhere, it needs to be easy for them! But I do love watching the birds drinking, it seems to be a really joyous experience for them having running water to drink from and bathe in. I didn't know about that from previous aviaries, figured if I kept it relatively clean and algae free it was OK - that meant a water change every fortnight (in a 50 litre pond) and a scrub out every month or so. But this clean filtered water thing is just amazing to watch how much they love it, clinging to the rocks and drinking from where it first comes out, or drinking and bathing at the overflow points to the next levels. I only need to dump the water to medicate them which is now 6 weeks since the last time and I am wondering if I should change it just "because", but it still tastes good to me (easy to check at the fountain).

However I now know about sparks, do you bother with the vitamins etc too or is that overkill?

I would also say in my case "over checking" the birds wasn't an issue as intuitively I was onto that one. If it was sunny they would get a few hours outside (still with the floor heater on) and with a shady side so they could choose, and I also kept them up high since being on the ground seems to be fearful, even for a sick bird (and maybe more so), and also kept them fairly covered in the day and completely so at night.

I must admit I would like to have a sick bird get better rather than expire, I am a bit over being a hopeless parent due to ignorance, inattentiveness or whatever!!! I guess I am up to "third time lucky" - which is most probably a saying based on the experience one racks up on the first two!

Weaver wrote:Vince, in an earlier post you said that you arrived at the sale with "an all wire budgie cage covered by a jumper".
If you then proceeded to buy a dozen or more birds during the sale and loaded them all into this cage, I believe this may be where your problems began.
I suggest you buy yourself a good fully enclosed (Dark) low ceiling multi compartment transport cage. Masks are a very nervous bird and I think stress will have been the greatest contributor to their demise.
I am not necessarily an advocate of dealers, but I think the inference that Andrews contributed to the deaths is a bit tough.

I did ask lots of people at Gunnedah how many birds to put in the cages I had and the consensus was "at least 8 to max 12 would be fine". I had 9 in this one and plenty of perching (and spare cages in case I needed them). But I will buy some of the compartmentalised ones mentioned next time is convenient as they look like a good system and can less stressfully make decisions on individual pairs. It is only a half hour back to my place and they were kept covered. I am not intending to say Andrew was (or wasn't) partially contributing, whether moving birds from 2.5 hours away that morning or previous night (I wouldn't know) set up a vulnerable bird for failure or not as a fact is irrelevant, he is not the sort of guy where deliberate negligence comes into play. Mind you, if he knew masks needed special attention I wish he would've mentioned it as I didn't have a clue!