Red Browed

Normal and lesser Red Browed.
Includes Species Profile.
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Tiaris
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Posts: 3517
Joined: 23 Apr 2011, 08:48
Location: Coffs Harbour

In the white-ears the darker reddish brown ones were proposed (I think by Matthews) as watsonii. In the late 1970s in knew a breeder who sourced his original stock from the wild & bred these true to type until the mid 1980s at least. All the WEMs I've seen in recent years have been the paler ones. The "watsonii" WEMs did look very attractive with the white ear and pale throat contrasting beautifully with reddish brown belly, flanks, crown & back. I think from memory the redder ones were slightly larger birds too.
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mattymeischke
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Joined: 25 Jul 2011, 20:25
Location: Southern Tablelands of NSW

crocnshas wrote:Matty,your comment regarding swans and black cockatoo's is irrelevant as they can travel many hundreds of kilometers in land and back to coastal areas to find food and water and cooler temperatures N.S.E.W,where as finches being so small are virtually stuck in the one place and have to adapt.
Nice. Touche.

I think I may have a clue to your grey-bellied white-bellied crimsons.
"Some authors have split the white-bellied forms of the Cape York Peninsula and Papua New Guinea into two separate subspecies, N. p. albiventer on the Cape York Peninsula, and N. p. evangelinae in Papua New Guinea, on the basis of differences in plumage (Boles 1988; Higgins et al. 2006; Keast 1958; Paynter 1968). However, other authors consider the differences between the Cape York Peninsula and Papua New Guinea birds to be insufficient to warrant separation, and to probably result from individual variation associated with the age of the bird and the wearing of the plumage (Boles 1988; Ford 1986; Rand 1942; Schodde & Mason 1999). Further study is needed to clarify the differences between the Cape York Peninsula and Papua New Guinea populations (Higgins et al. 2006)." (from http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/s ... n_id=64443)

And even a picture: http://barraimaging.com.au/gallery/disp ... 2006&pos=0
Do you reckon it's a dirty white-belly or a grey-belly?
Avid amateur aviculturalist; I keep mostly australian and foreign finches.
The art is long, the life so short; the critical moment is fleeting and experience can be misleading, crisis is difficult....... (Hippocrates)
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mattymeischke
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Joined: 25 Jul 2011, 20:25
Location: Southern Tablelands of NSW

...and Tiaris, there's a WE mask with a reddish brown crown and back and pale throat on the cover of Aust. Avicult. from February '85; a small picture can be seen at http://www.birds.org.au/cgi-bin/ezyalbum.pl?120. This one is even labelled 'Poephila leucotis watsonii'.

This was another contender, though it's labelled leucotis:
http://barraimaging.com.au/gallery/disp ... 2009&pos=1. Does this look at all like the 'watsonii' birds you mention?
Avid amateur aviculturalist; I keep mostly australian and foreign finches.
The art is long, the life so short; the critical moment is fleeting and experience can be misleading, crisis is difficult....... (Hippocrates)
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Tiaris
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Joined: 23 Apr 2011, 08:48
Location: Coffs Harbour

The one on the AA cover looks like the one. That darker reddish brown is the one. The second one looks too pale to be it.
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Tiaris
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Location: Coffs Harbour

The grey-bellied bloods Craig is talking about is different to the NG Bloods. The NG ones are cream bellied, however I've been showed a photo of a wild NG bird which is far more vivid in the white of the belly & the red of the rest of the body than any WB blood I've seen, so there is a degree of regional variation within the NG population as well.
There are supposed to be a wild population in the Gregory River area in Aus which are very small & with grey bellies.
I have a friend who recently obtained some grey-bellied bloods & he says they are unbelievably placid in a mixed finch aviary.
These are quite different to the white bellied stock which a couple of breeders have which show a grey edge to the white of the belly. This grey originates from intentional subspecies crosses with black-bellied birds when WB mates couldn't be located.
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Craig52
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Joined: 11 Nov 2011, 19:26
Location: victoria

Tiaris wrote:In the white-ears the darker reddish brown ones were proposed (I think by Matthews) as watsonii. In the late 1970s in knew a breeder who sourced his original stock from the wild & bred these true to type until the mid 1980s at least. All the WEMs I've seen in recent years have been the paler ones. The "watsonii" WEMs did look very attractive with the white ear and pale throat contrasting beautifully with reddish brown belly, flanks, crown & back. I think from memory the redder ones were slightly larger birds too.
That is correct Tiaris, it is very similar colour of the Plumheaded finch.
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Craig52
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mattymeischke wrote:
crocnshas wrote:Matty,your comment regarding swans and black cockatoo's is irrelevant as they can travel many hundreds of kilometers in land and back to coastal areas to find food and water and cooler temperatures N.S.E.W,where as finches being so small are virtually stuck in the one place and have to adapt.
Nice. Touche.

I think I may have a clue to your grey-bellied white-bellied crimsons.
"Some authors have split the white-bellied forms of the Cape York Peninsula and Papua New Guinea into two separate subspecies, N. p. albiventer on the Cape York Peninsula, and N. p. evangelinae in Papua New Guinea, on the basis of differences in plumage (Boles 1988; Higgins et al. 2006; Keast 1958; Paynter 1968). However, other authors consider the differences between the Cape York Peninsula and Papua New Guinea birds to be insufficient to warrant separation, and to probably result from individual variation associated with the age of the bird and the wearing of the plumage (Boles 1988; Ford 1986; Rand 1942; Schodde & Mason 1999). Further study is needed to clarify the differences between the Cape York Peninsula and Papua New Guinea populations (Higgins et al. 2006)." (from http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/s ... n_id=64443)

And even a picture: http://barraimaging.com.au/gallery/disp ... 2006&pos=0
Do you reckon it's a dirty white-belly or a grey-belly?
Thanks Matty for those sites but have already been there.Sorry but you have misunderstood from where the grey belly bird is supposed to be,it's more a dove grey colour on the belly and it's from the Gregory River area,Northern Australia.
The two WB forms from NG and CY,i believe are one with the latter being remenants of when the two continents were joined and then cut off.
The pic is a WB comming out of a heavy moult,be it young or old the colour of the belly/body intensifies as breeding season begins and drops off after season ends as observed in my own birds. Craig
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Craig52
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Joined: 11 Nov 2011, 19:26
Location: victoria

Tiaris wrote: These are quite different to the white bellied stock which a couple of breeders have which show a grey edge to the white of the belly. This grey originates from intentional subspecies crosses with black-bellied birds when WB mates couldn't be located.
I do partially agree with you Tiaris as i don't know the history of my original prs but that grey edge does dissapear with age,my 3 year old prs have mostly lost that but last years cocks retain it and that was a question asked by G Mc when he was here a few weeks ago as his young cocks have it and the adult cock doesn't and he knows where his birds come.
It maybe a trait of this subspecie. Cheers Craig
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garymc
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010, 21:26
Location: Western Australia

Interesting evolution of this thread - how to sex red brows!

Will attempt to take and post some pictures of my WB Crimson males and females over the weekend to help further this discussion.

Seems though that there really is very little information out there(that I could find anyways) with regards to this species in general let alone the specifics of young birds attaining adult plumage.

Be interested to hear the experiences (a few pictures would be great) of others (a few members mentioned that they kept the species a while back) with regards to whether they experienced any sort of halo affect in first moult birds. Might also be worth trying to get some info/pictures from our European counterparts on this one, given that they have had far more experience with the WB subspecies (albeit New Guinea stock).

Now the discussion is out there it presents a great opportunity to expand our knowledge and experiences on this rarely kept subspecies.
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Craig52
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Joined: 11 Nov 2011, 19:26
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The whole thread has been very interesting Gary,given it started off How do you sex redbrows,maybe we should change to a topic in finch Lounge "Sub Species" but keep it going. Craig :wtf:
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