Pure head colours

[pdg]

Hi,

Searching the forum for "cabinet cages" (60 pages of topics) I came across some really strong opinions about head colours (even stronger opinions about cabinet cages). Some breeders seem to be fundamentally against mixing head colours.

I am familiar (as far as I know of course) with the scientific knowledge about breeding outcome when mixing head colours. (e.g. S. Pryke) Some of the research outcome was mentioned or cited by several breeders on the forum. Also, I have bred gouldians myself here in Belgium and have a bit of experience with it and shared experiences with others. I have a question for Australian gouldian breeders.

Is there, for us bird breeders (aviculture) compared to birds breeding in nature any real good reason for not mixing head colours?

In Belgium and the Netherlands, and probably in the whole of Europe, head colours are being mixed for at least two reasons:

1) RH x RH or YH x YH pairings generation after generation seems to produce young with washed out head colours. The colour aren't that vibrant anymore. It looks as if the head colour isn't rich anymore.
2) RH x RH or YH x YH will produce birds with a very thin head band, even more so after successive RHxRH matings, in which case the head band can totally disapear, although it is a feature of the gouldian and therefor expected to be present.
It is also said that when RH birds from RHxRH pairings are paired up with pure RH generation after generation, birds will be less strong and vital, which is the case with YHxYH too. This is not the case for BHxBH.

On the other hand, two head colours are normally not mixed, or not more than once: red x yellow. Also, RH hens from RHxBH pairings will show more black in the red zone, which is not good. So RHxBH pairings are good to produce nice RH cocks.

So, BH are mixed with RH and YH, for both sexes. RH x RH and YH x YH is ok, but not more than twice and depending on the width of head band and richness of head colour.

One of the reasons mentioned on this forum for not mixing red heads is because you could end up buying a RH bird, which might, if paired to a RH produce BH (whilst you wanted to breed RH). Some people have answered that strict record keeping is a solution. I fully agree, this is also done by most breeders in Europe, using for instance 'zooeasy'. But what I don't understand is why it is not common in Australia for breeders to ring their birds with rings that have the year, bird number and breeders number on it? I’ll have to search a few more pages of topics to know what’s already been said on that. Everything seems to be related and it is difficult to consider all aspects of a topic without touching another one. So back to head colours.

My question again:

Is there, for us bird breeders (aviculture) compared to what seems to be natural any real good reason for not mixing head colours?

[Tiaris]

You've covered the issue quite well & I don't believe there is a problem with mixing head colours, especially for the right reasons & knowing what the likely outcomes will be.
If, for instance, you wished to bring back the black band around the red or yellow head, the use of a black-headed bird will help this. If the head colour of the hens in the red or yellow-headed stock is already consistently clean, then a one-off mating to a black is not likely to significantly dirty the head colour of female progeny.
I am currently using some yellow headed birds to mate with my existing yellow-billed black headed birds to hopefully produce yellow headed young with some of the favourable attributes of my black-headed stock. I have had some people question my mixed head colour matings saying that it was "against the rules" of Gouldian breeding. But the truth is that I have been continually breeding roughly half yellow-billed black heads & presumably most of my red-billed birds are split to yellow so I have been breeding both yellows & blacks continuously but just haven't allowed the yellow-headed birds to express a yellow phenotype as I've up until now always mated both black-headed parents. My use of the yellow-headed birds this (& next) season is simply an attempt to allow my yellow-headed genotype birds express their yellow-headedness.
I have a mate who consistently breeds excellent quality Gouldians, & he is adament that all of the outstanding birds he has ever bred are produced by black-headed mothers irrespective of the head colour of the father & the young.

[Diane]

Excellent topic and well thought out posts. Hopefully we will have a productive discussion on this with many opinions.
My take on the mixing of different head colours and more has always been.....

In the wild I'm sure mixed head colour matings take place so this would make it a natural occurrence.
It maybe (as research seems to have proved) that birds prefer a certain head colour when choosing a mate, but this must be tempered with the availability of the preferred colour choice in the wild flock situation.
If the preferred colour choice was not available I'm sure the mating urge would take over and eventually any mate of any colour would do.
It seems to me to be evident that secondary head colour choices must have been made on a regular basis in the past. Otherwise, if the results of different research are to be believed why would hens partnered with cocks of a supposedly lesser choice head colour be able to control the sex of the offspring? This type of evolutionarily change just doesn't happen overnight.
Ive had mixed head pairings with birds choosing their own partners in another aviary despite offering same head colour birds and Ive found the young from these mixed pairings to be quite good looking birds with plenty of good clear colour.
Maybe the birds are more aware of their natural state than we think they are and any attraction by one particular head colour to what some purists would consider the wrong head colour may be just what the genes of that particular bird needs to produce a consistent good colour.

I fully agree with the mention of muddy looking hens when the heritage has been consistently put to BH. I spent ages looking for a YH hen with good colour.
I totally agree with the need for keepers to keep accurate and consistent records and I feel the resistance to some to the mutations is the fact that not many keepers keep records and more importantly inform the buyers. So when a keeper buys any birds they are buying an unknown quantity. This resistance to split birds could lessen with keepers keeping better records.
Although I will say that even though records can be kept and sellers may inform any buyers of the possible splits after that the situation is out of the record keepers control.


I know the the body colour issue isnt the main focus of the topic, but as a related topic...I feel its appropriate to air a few views of mine here too. As pdg said

Everything seems to be related and it is difficult to consider all aspects of a topic without touching another one.

The genes for the production of the mutation body colours must exist in the wild gouldians otherwise we wouldn't see them in the aviary kept ones.
This mixing of head colours and most probably slight differences in body colours combined with a limited choice of partners within a wild flock would no doubt eventually produce mutations in the body colour too, just because these are not seen in the wild doesn't mean they don't, won't, or haven't existed at some time. They probably have been fledged in the past and will be in the future, but as it is with nature, being different they would make a perfect target for the predator to focus on and therefore probably wouldn't survive very long.
Who knows, maybe these random mutations are natures way of making sure the predators don't get too many of the "normal" birds.
The only difference is that captive birds, once its known of being capable of producing these mutations have been directed by keepers to increase the instances of the said mutation.

[finchbreeder]

It is largely a breeder preference. YH is a well established mutation of RH. And it would appear to me that the birds do not see themselves as being a different head colour. As when you put YH and RH in the same avairy and let them pick their mates, they will go to the opposite colour as often as to the same colour. Re the loss of the black line round the head. Some of us like that and breed for it also. And many people simply do not understand genetics.
LML

[pdg]

Thanks for the contributions. I am also waiting for someone who does not agree (falsification) whith what's been said and has really good arguments for that.
Diane, I agree with what you say about mutations: if it is in the genotype it can come out in the phenotype. But even if you would leave out predators it would be hard for the mutation to proliferate. For example: a white breasted wild gouldian of a wild natural pair would mate with a natural, which would give splits. Those splits would with a very high probability all mate with naturals and not with their parent, and so on. The next breeding year the white breasted could reproduce again, but just as well not. Also, naturals might prefer not to mate with the WB. Mutations are natural, I agree and by our aviculture we can make those mutations come out and let them proliferate. Isn't that nice?

[BrettB]

Interesting post pdg, I have no experience in breeding gouldian's but will make a couple of points.

Is there, for us bird breeders (aviculture) compared to birds breeding in nature any real good reason for not mixing head colours?

I think this is the article by Sarah Pryke you indirectly refer to http://sarahpryke.com/wp-content/upload ... lution.pdf
It demonstrates that "mixed" marriages have reduced viability of chicks compared to "same headcolor" marriages.
So if your aim is to produce more birds, it is better to avoid "mixed" matings.

Your second point refers to out crossing with the "wild" strain to improve on line breeding. Generally to remove certain genetic faults that develop with line breeding or to improve "vigour". It's a well established strategy that has its place

Is there, for us bird breeders (aviculture) compared to what seems to be natural any real good reason for not mixing head colours?

So like most questions the answer is ... it depends ?

Cheers
Brett

[pdg]

Thanks for your interesting comments brett. I have a few comments on them…

1)Pryke’s research results say something about the viability of one generation of offspring bred from pure same head coloured pairs. It says nothing about the successive pairings of birds with same pure head colours. My point was that successive breeding with pure same head colour birds is not good. As I said before I think there is nothing wrong with breeding with a pair of pure head colours for one season and a second one with pure offspring from such pairs. As the research suggests and you want to make clear brett, it might (see point three on transfer) even be good as far as number of offspring is concerned.

2)Reproductive success in nature is measured (by scientists) by number of offspring (that make it to adulthood) that is for sure. But I doubt if this should be the primary goal for aviculture. Nature is blind and has no goal (Richard Dawkins - and other evolution scientists - has written more than one book on that matter). We as artificial selectors take into consideration a lot of features when we pair up birds to produce offspring and can control them to a degree: size, body shape, intensity of colours, next to head colour or even mutations. I don’t think number of offspring is the first thing that should be considered when breeding birds. Many breeders will say: “Well, I’ve had a good breeding season, I’ve bred 150 young from 15 pairs.” But how many of those 150 young will be good enough to keep for next year’s breeding season, even if all of them make it to adulthood? I’d rather breed 10 really good birds from 4 pairs, wouldn’t you? (Also, to whom will you sell the 140 lesser birds? Will you be able to sell them or even give away for free?) I make an exception for birds that are in danger of dissapearing from our aviaries because of low numbers; at least until they are back to a safe number.


3) (No comment on your post Brett) Transferring results from a group of 200 test birds (Pryke) to our aviaries should be done with care! Scientific research usually says something about large populations. The breeding success with the few pairs in your aviary might be the ones that contradict these results. The fewer pairs you have in your stock the higher the possibility your breeding results will divert from Pryke’s results. That one pair of pure RHxRH you have in your aviary might end up with fewer young than your unpure RHxRH. This does not contradict Pryke’s results, however.

To end my reply I would like to state that taking into consideration my first two points in this reply as well as the two points I mentioned in my first post in this topic, there are no real arguments yet for successively breeding pure head colours or to keep them pure.
You say it depends brett. When you’re talking about one generation I agree. You might want to breed certain features into your stock for example. But when you are talking about successive generations, I disagree when you say that ‘when your aim is to produce more birds’ you better avoid mixed maitings, since the research you refer to doesn’t say anything about that.

Thanks for putting the link in this topic Brett.

[Tiaris]

I also strongly disagree with the theory that mixed head colour pairings produce fewer young (or that this has an effect on sexes of young produced or hatchling survival for that matter) & can raise many examples over many seasons of breeding by myself & other breeders to contradict the theory. My current season is an obvious example of this (but far from the only one). My most productive 2 breeding pairs both in terms of numbers reared and success rate from hatching to independence are mixed head colour pairs. I know this is not compelling in itself but for me just adds yet another thread my scepticism.

[pdg]

Re the loss of the black line round the head. Some of us like that and breed for it also. And many people simply do not understand genetics.
LML

Hi finchbreeder,

Do you know anyone who wants to breed the black head line out of his stock?
Because this means that this would require at least a couple of successive pure same head colour matings. Even more if you really want to keep it out of your stock. Since one mixed pairing with a BH might already bring it back.

It would be very interesting to know what the birds headcolour and head in general looks like in those pure YH and RH stocks. Also what would it mean as far as viability is concerned?
Do you have any information on that?

[kenny66]

I also strongly disagree with the theory that mixed head colour pairings produce fewer young (or that this has an effect on sexes of young produced or hatchling survival for that matter) & can raise many examples over many seasons of breeding by myself & other breeders to contradict the theory. My current season is an obvious example of this (but far from the only one). My most productive 2 breeding pairs both in terms of numbers reared and success rate from hatching to independence are mixed head colour pairs. I know this is not compelling in itself but for me just adds yet another thread my scepticism.

Totally agree with this comment. That has also been my experience, over many breeding seasons