Black Headed Munias

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Tiaris
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I am not at all saying the naturalised forms are all hybrids. I am simply saying that the captive birds in Australian aviaries which display a clearly defined blackbelly surrounded by a pale brown area in both sexes most certainly are hybrids or descendants from hybrids.
I also don't doubt that more than one natural variant were included in the originally imported mix of birds which comprise the captive stock we have. My main point is that the vast majority of BH Nuns, which were very well established in pure form here for many decades, comprised essentially dark brown bodied birds with a black head and within these cocks displayed a black belly area surrounded by very dark brown. Hens did not show the black area at all and these traits were very consistent in our BH Nun stocks for many years up until roughly the last 10 years when birds as shown in Gary's photos started to more regularly show themselves in people's aviaries.
I very much doubt that BH Nuns have been the target of recent bird smuggling.
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garymc
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I recall a little over 10 years ago bringing in from the Eastern states some BH Nuns (not tri's) for a guy and when he got them he said they were very different from the one he had in that the new ones had black bellies.

Experience to me with other bird species has been that bird breeders here in WA have been a bit lax (as a generalisation) when it comes to bringing in different bloodlines fron the Eastern states so it may be possible that isolated pockets of these brown bellied birds do exist over here.

In a recent trip over east I saw probably 50 black headed nuns (in 2 collections and 1 bird dealer) and cannot recall seeing one which did not have at worst a reasonably well defined black belly.

Looking at the images in the asian bird photo's to me anyways my two lots of birds appear similar to:-

The Brown-bellied ones I have are similar in looks to the sinesis subspecies or alternately the chestnut munia - inages 18, 31, 45, and 57

The black bellied ones I have look similar to the either the atricata subspecies (images 9, 14, 14, 19, 20, 29). One of those images is of a half coloured youngster and appears to be developing a distinctive border between the brown and black of the chest/lower abdomen.

There is also an image #69 of the malacca malacca subspecies from India. This image, although probably the poorest of the 70 images in the dataset (busy here today at work), looks to me anyways remarkably similar to my black bellied birds.

I do agree with Tiaris' comments in that if one of the two variations I have is a hybrid then it is most likely the black bellied one, as a can't come up with a hybrid combination that would generate a brown belly, whereas the black belly could easily come from the tri-nun.


It would be interesting if other's keeping this species could post images of their birds for comparisons.

Where this sits with me at the moment, is that both "type" should at least be kept separate (which is a bugger given I purchased the second lot to outcross the originals with).

I think we agree that the brown bellied form is true to type - probably "sinesis" in my opinion

On the other hand the black-bellied form may be atricapa, malacca malacca or a tri nun/bh nun hybrid? So what are the options with this one?
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TomDeGraaff
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I must say that I always thought black-headed nuns were monomorphic.

The black belly on these birds are certainly very distinct. This does, in my opinion, make them a little suspect. However, I know of one fellow who has been breeding these birds from black-headed stock. Perhaps they have been "improved" by selective pressure (?). If no white feathers appear, then I would be happy to consider them black-bellied Blach-headed nuns and make sure they are kept separate.

The real trouble is, those out there who do not respect the DNA of a distinct species or subspecies and either unintentionally, negligently or deliberately (grrrrrrr!) cross these birds. I think they need some test mating and some closed flock breeding before anyone could pass "quality assurance" on them.

Has anyone got photos of crosses? Do they display any white feathering? I bet thet don"t! That would make it difficult.

Another bloke here in Victoria resurrected many subspecies of the ring-necked pheasant by selective breeding. How pure they are, that's debatable, but he had quite a few and they ticked all the boxes with the field guides, I believe.

Again, I'd keep them separate and keep a watch on the young.
Sorry!!!!!! I talk too much!!!!
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finchbreeder
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While a very great fan of all things Munia. I am by no means an expert. The only BH i have seen in the feather have had brown bellies. But as the pics clearly show, they exist in other parts with the black belly patch. So what is to say that people have not bread the type they prefered. While others just crossed them indiscriminately. This would leave us with some of each type and crosses. If the ones Gary has just got come from a line of "we like the black bellies" then they would be just as "real" as those we see more often. If it was me I would most definately be breeding them as 2 different pure varieties of Munia. Unless breeding proves they are something else. Good luck Garry. And would very much like to hear what happens in the future.
LML
LML
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Tiaris
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You need only look at image 20 in the link to see an intergrade/natural hybrid/whatever else you want to call it - North-eastern tip of India which is very much the Eastern edge of Tri-coloured zone and far western edge of BH zone (I wasn't previously aware that the 2 intersected as per Restall, but clearly they must). The adult bird accompanying the half-coloured juvenile is very typical of the features I have seen in definite captive-bred BH/Tri crosses with pale brown area where the white would be on a Tri. There are no white feathers in this area on the few guaranteed hybrids I've seen, just a paler brown area.
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garymc
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Sorry iage 69 should have read 68
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Pete Sara
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Dont quote me if iam wrong. But didnt one of the bird mags have an article on such colour differances in the bh nuns between the states.

As i am work i cant check up... pete
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Myzomela
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Interesting discussion people.

Does anyone have old photos of BH nuns in Australia to see which form originally occurred?

I'm thinking of old issues of Australian Aviculture or the South Australian society's magazine (sorry, I've forgotten its name- Birdkeeper?)
or perhaps older books such as Les de Ross's which I think had a photo of a BH nun.
Research; evaluate;observe;act
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TomDeGraaff
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de Ross book: black belly
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Jayburd
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(3rd edit - found it, sorry!)
Julian

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