Aussie Finch Forum

I was looking at Bluebutterfly's great new crop of Gouldians and it set me wondering . It is a consistent complaint about blues dying but it begs the question what is the weakness of that mutation? What exactly is the pathology of their demise? What is the experience overseas? Initially I thought it was a simple inbreeding depression but everyone has crossed them into different genetic backgrounds now and yet they are still dying. If it is genetic surely the mutation itself is unlikely to be responsible but it must be a closely linked gene (adjacent to the blue gene on the same chromosome). Breaking any association is a matter of Russian Roulette so you've got to keep breeding. Unfortunately it seems the odds are in favour of death rather than the usual game and you can't screen yet until you put the splits together to express the blue genes and even if you have managed to break the association in one parent the other carries it then you're back to where you started with the F2 generation. I wonder if anyone is sequencing the gouldian genome? What are other people's thoughts and knowledge on this subject? I've never kept the mutation so I can't contribute much other than to start the thread.

It may be linkage to a deleterious gene.

A similar situation occurred with blue scarlets back in the seventies and this linkage may have been the case.

The more blues and splits bred and, somehow survive, then the greater the chance of recombination (crossing over) occurring. I reckon this happened in scarlets just as it did in cockatiels with the lutino-pearl and others.

Greg,in the early stages of getting blues up and established,they mass produced under bengalese and it is believed that the bengalese were passing on a disease which the blue gouldians couldn't handle but the bengo's could and were just carrying it.I believe it is coclasoma?,and it is treated with Turbosol?.
Now that blues are parent reared and bred in outside aviaries and had been initialy(years ago)treated with this drug,there are some very strong/healthy birds out there, to the extent that they have been bred into EYs and AYs and also ADs to produce double mutations with not to many problems.
So to put it in a nutshell,i believe that the early deaths of young blues was a disease,not genetic. Craig

I think it's a bit of both Craig. We have certainly seen a higher incidence of some diseases, particularly renal disease, in blue gouldians. This was in parent reared birds with no parasitic issues. It appears that these strains have been responsible for much of the poor press that blue's get and many of these lines have subsequently died out. I'm sure whatever factor it was it may pop up as a recessive gene down the track and we'll need to outcross again to get rid of it.

Both microbe and dna may have something to do with it.
I also seem to remember that with the blue scarlets (way back when), the neophemas were devils for eye diseases and dampness-based bugs. Perhaps those scarlets were not the robust strains we have now.

The blue gouldians that I have necropsied have had various infections that have bowled them over, and in many cases multiple concurrent infections.
This is typical of new mutations, no matter what the species.
They tend to be more susceptible to any of the diseases going around.
In many of the native parrot mutations, for example, the mutant birds were the ones that were affected by the beak and feather disease virus whereas their "normal" nest mates would be less often affected.

Outcrossing and strengthening the blood lines & selective culling of weak strains has improved their vigour and ability to withstand disease.

The main difference with the blue gouldians would appear to be that this has taken a lot longer to occur, despite lots of outcrossing.

People have already speculated why. As Greg H suggests, if anyone was able to sequence and compare the genomes of wild type vs blue gouldians then maybe we might find the real answer.

In the meantime, outcrossing to the most vigorous normal birds and judicious culling of their offspring is still the best way to go for any new or weak mutation IMO. Sometimes the old ways are still the best.

I have recently seen video footage of Blues in European shows which were just as good in physical type & vigour as their best normal birds. I have also very recently heard from a first-hand witness to the first blues "imported" into Australia & exactly how they were propogated. The initial few birds were apparently very good physical specimens which bred well. The problem then arose from their subsequent "running them into the ground" by the breeders who produced with them. They were mated as blue to blue for generation after generation, up to 50 eggs were taken from each hen each season & fostered under bengalese (6 pairs of bengalese were used for each pair of blue gouldians) & this was all conducted in cabinets indoors & heated.
I dare say if this was the mode of establishment with any recessive mutation of any finch species you would end up with similar problems of overall inherent weakness taking many years of remedial outcrossing to ever end up with vigorous specimens.
Whatever the actual diseases which show up in autopsies of dead blue Gouldians I believe the cause of such widespread weakness & lack of resistence to disease can be traced back to the appalling lack of patience and care for the quality of the bird by those who established them in Austraila.

It seems that every generation has it's small group of money-hungry ratbags who simply need quantity no matter how it affects the birds.

Again (coz I'm a dinosaur) this happened with lutino cockatiels in the past. It seems the guys/gals with money and no scruples get these things first.
It's fhen up to you good folks to start fixing it all.

Tiaris comments are spot on 100%.
My blues are out cross every year to new and different blood lines and the birds that are produced are strong
you still get some weak birds and i do not sell those birds they get put down humanly ,
The problem is there is still some breeders that foster a lot and they do not cull there birds they sell them and there are some
finch people that are getting in to blues or new mutations that do not do there home work, for example i had one person ring me
to buy blues and he had no idea he wanted to put blue to silver when i told him it is no good and you get weak birds he told me really
he wanted to spend a lot of money on birds but he did not know what to do did he read up on books on gouldians no did he go on the net no did he ask breeders no he just whanted to blow his $$$ or make $$ then the birds die he will come back to the breeder were he bought the birds and say they are weak all he wanted to do is make $$.
I tell all the people that buy birds from me to do there home work not many when they come bring pen or paper to rite things down
most say i will remember but they dont.
Thats my say cheers CF