Peterst Twinspots

For questions about any species that doesn't have it's own area and for general information on foreign birds.
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roma9009
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011, 00:33
Location: Victoria

It would be amazing if there was a import. But and I hope im wrong will be a long way off
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toothlessjaws
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Joined: 25 Apr 2009, 09:54
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Location: melbourne

thanks for the info tiaris.
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Myzomela
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Joined: 24 Jan 2011, 18:44
Location: Melbourne Vic

I agree with Tiaris's comment about the 2 main breeders getting out at the same time being the major tipping point for this species, but the small genetic base to start with wouldn't have helped and has been the problem with many waxbills which have disappeared IMO.

I disagree, however, with the "hot house/too soft" argument, even though I understand the logic behind it.

I believe that if you have a rare species, known to be delicate, then it is imperative to provide the ideal environment to maximise the breeding results and minimise the losses until you can build the numbers up to such a stage where selection for tolerance to more varied environmental conditions can occur. As an example, a well known breeder living in a cooler part of our country who kept birds in open planted aviary lost several rare, delicate species but continued to buy more directly from the source despite his losses. If he had tried to keep them in more moderate conditions he may have bred and possibly established these species, instead of losing every single bird. I for one would have loved to see pin-tailed parrot finches, bamboo parrot-finches, quail finches, violet eared and black-cheeked waxbills at least given a chance to become established in Australian aviculture.

However, I know that many disagree with this argument, and that's fair enough.
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toothlessjaws
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Myzomela wrote:I agree with Tiaris's comment about the 2 main breeders getting out at the same time being the major tipping point for this species, but the small genetic base to start with wouldn't have helped and has been the problem with many waxbills which have disappeared IMO.

I disagree, however, with the "hot house/too soft" argument, even though I understand the logic behind it.

I believe that if you have a rare species, known to be delicate, then it is imperative to provide the ideal environment to maximise the breeding results and minimise the losses until you can build the numbers up to such a stage where selection for tolerance to more varied environmental conditions can occur. As an example, a well known breeder living in a cooler part of our country who kept birds in open planted aviary lost several rare, delicate species but continued to buy more directly from the source despite his losses. If he had tried to keep them in more moderate conditions he may have bred and possibly established these species, instead of losing every single bird. I for one would have loved to see pin-tailed parrot finches, bamboo parrot-finches, quail finches, violet eared and black-cheeked waxbills at least given a chance to become established in Australian aviculture.

However, I know that many disagree with this argument, and that's fair enough.
This is precisely my sentiment myzomela. like i said - i'd rather "soft" birds than dead birds - or an entire species going extinct to aviculture.

but in regards to melbourne particularly i'll take it a step further: i think providing a bit of heat even for common birds is fine. last weekend i was at the melbourne bird sale, and struck up a conversation with a guy who told me he'd got in some troubles recently by purchasing a large number of birds that had all died after he released them into his "open" avairy. he discovered the breeder bred his birds in cabinets indoors and blamed him for not disclosing this information and things had gotten nasty. the conversation then moved onto other things and i mistakenly divulged that over the wintertime, i use a small bulb heater in my aviary on a timer that gives the birds an hr of heat to charge-up at each dusk and dawn. whilst he was perfectly polite, i was warned that nobody would buy my birds (ha! if only i had any to sell!) and that i should be careful as a bad reputation "sticks like mud" in aviculture.

its such an illogical frame of mind to me. we spend small fortunes on seed, wire, medicine and the birds themselves - yet a warm lightbulb (the same things we have on in every room of our homes most nights) is the devil in the aviary!

its of my opinion that us southerners could pick up a tip or two from those in cooler climes overseas. melbourne's winter can feature brutal biting wind with consecutive days of barely any sunshine with the temperature barely hitting 10 degrees. wild birds have the options of finding those tiny odd patches of sun, and finding their own places to keep warm. birds in aviaries are denied this. if that rare little 15min patch of sun one afternoon is blocked by the neighbours house or the tree overshadowing their cage well, they don't get that. and that little boost might be all they need to get their core body temp back on track before nightfall. most finches are semi arid, sub-tropical or tropical birds. they can handle pretty cold night temperatures, but they usually get warm sunny days in return. if your climate doesn't provide that, i don't understand the obsession with forcing them to adapt? if we keep tropical fish we feely accept they need warmth and buy an $30 aquarium heater. whats the difference?

in any event whilst i acknowledge its one of many factors, i feel its a real shame that this attitude contributes to the decline of a species such as the twinspot in aviculture.
Last edited by toothlessjaws on 10 May 2015, 00:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Tiaris
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I didn't say that "soft" species shouldn't be treated in the manner that they need to be treated for them to survive & have reasonable prospects for their propogation. Nor do I believe species should be thrown to the mercy of climatic extremes - clearly commonsense protections should always be in place to minimise the adverse affects of extreme cold (& heat) on our birds. I said that the knowledge that the species was soft was a deterrent for many people to keep them (including myself) as many finch breeders in Australia are not prepared to keep & breed their birds that way & especially so when combined with a high price tag (and the other contributing factors mentioned) where the relatively large investment then also becomes somewhat more risky than other species options. Call me a freak if you wish but I intrinsically believe that birds are outdoor creatures & I do not personally get the slightest bit of enjoyment from keeping birds indoors, hence my decision to avoid species which generally require it to succeed. I also said that it was my opinion that producing birds in controlled indoor conditions adds to the "softness" of any species so produced - this is obviously again my own personal opinion based on my own experiences and observations but I will continue to argue it strenuously whenever challenged.
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Myzomela
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That is fair enough Tiaris. Everyone is entitled to keep their birds however they want and few could argue with your success.

Some enjoy breeding birds in cabinets, others in large outdoor flights. Each to their own. I for one agree that it is much more enjoyable seeing birds in outdoor planted flights than in small cages.

My point is that we shouldn't complain about species disappearing from our aviaries if we aren't prepared to provide the environment they need to succeed, whatever that may be.
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Craig52
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Myzomela wrote:That is fair enough Tiaris. Everyone is entitled to keep their birds however they want and few could argue with your success.

Some enjoy breeding birds in cabinets, others in large outdoor flights. Each to their own. I for one agree that it is much more enjoyable seeing birds in outdoor planted flights than in small cages.

My point is that we shouldn't complain about species disappearing from our aviaries if we aren't prepared to provide the environment they need to succeed, whatever that may be.
I agree with both Tiaris and Myzo,this bird and others have and will have had met their demise because of the way they have been housed to keep them alive and breeding and i applaud those couple of breeders for doing so.I know that at least one of those breeders was producing all young cocks and in doing so produced a scientific article in many bird journals that he may had found a way to produce more young hens but i don't think it worked,you can't keep a specie going if you have all cocks regardless of how they are kept. Craig
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E Orix
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Location: Howlong on NSW/Vic Border 30km from Albury
Location: Howlong NSW

I must show my dismay in some ones comment if you heat no one will buy your birds.
That Turnip needs to be sat down and taught a few home truths and some bird management.
All my birds are housed outside and my aviaries have big deep shelters, not just to keep
the birds dry but to let them retire to a dry NON drafty area.
As for heat yes I do also provide it by the way of a lamp fitted inside a terracotta plant pot
suspended from the roof to with in 150+/- off the aviary floor.
When birds want heat they go to the pot if they don't they move away, it doesn't make them soft.
Years ago when I lived in Melb. you needed heat just to keep Gouldians alive so I put globes
in big Actavite tins to do similar.
People are quick to blame breeders for not telling them how the birds were bred and how old,
it's up to the buyer to ask the questions,if they don't like their answers guess what!!! you walk
away.I also agree if you intend to keep species that prefer hotter conditions you must be responsible
and set up for them.
If you are a cabinet breeder you also should assist the buyers by cutting back the birds reliance for warmer
conditions and ready them for the possibility of a facility totally different to their original home.
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toothlessjaws
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Joined: 25 Apr 2009, 09:54
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
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i'm just glad you could read my message E Orix - i was continually distracted while writing it and just re-read it to find it littered with stray words!

actually, i just purchased a ceramic light fitting with a infrared bulb from a reptile supplies place the other day and i was going to try the terracotta plant pot trick just to test out how it works - you suspend it from roof on a chain? about 150cm off the aviary floor? i imagine its good for fledglings...
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Finches2011
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Location: Brisbane

This is a fascinating discussion and reflects the real challenges we have in trying to save many of these rare finches. As you would have seen from the last census, Peters Twinspots are not alone in being desperately low in numbers. Narrow genetics and specific housing and breeding needs are clearly factors with the decline and probable demise of the Peter's. Cooperation among breeders able and willing to dedicate tine and space to these species is the only way they might ever be turned around. I can't help thinking that the high $ values that are attached to such species does not help in ensuring those with the skills and time are able to assist. When there is only a handful left they really have no $ value and of course once they are gone they definitely have no value.
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