Saw these today

[KENTUCKY]

The RH WB Hen shown cant be an Australian Dilute Backed
The Bird shown has all its black colouring unaltered, in the AD Backed, this would have been diluted to a silvery grey, plus the Wing colour does not resemble that of a Golden Delicious Apple green, there are several more subtle alterations which this Bird does not show,for me, in this case the AD Backed is a no no.
I will stick to my guns and call this Red Headed WH Hen a Cinnamon.
Question for Craig52, I always believed that Cinnamon is more related to the yellow series rather then the Blue series, I have got an inquiring mind,fill me in.
Also this RH WB Cinnamon Hen is autosomal recessive and not Sex linked ( Black Eyes)

[fincher]

im gona go with white breast aust dilute for the hen can refer to a guide to gouldians and mutaions pg 109 looks very similar to the hen on that page also on the really good gouldians site the Belgium one theres a few pics on there that looks exactly the same so that would meen being siblings its a dilute blue

[Misso]

IF... i remember correctly reading in the abk book a guild to gouldian finches and their mutations when the white chest mutation is involved with an Aus Recessive Dilute the white chest reacts and brings the birds colours back to look more like a normal gouldian ( doesn't dilute the bird as much ) ( hence maybe why it has a black bib/collar ) il have to have a re-read over those mutation chapters again as i could be totally wrong. all the same it will be exciting for the bird breeder this season to have a play with these birds and see what can be produced.

misso

[Craig52]

The RH WB Hen shown cant be an Australian Dilute Backed
The Bird shown has all its black colouring unaltered, in the AD Backed, this would have been diluted to a silvery grey, plus the Wing colour does not resemble that of a Golden Delicious Apple green, there are several more subtle alterations which this Bird does not show,for me, in this case the AD Backed is a no no.
I will stick to my guns and call this Red Headed WH Hen a Cinnamon.
Question for Craig52, I always believed that Cinnamon is more related to the yellow series rather then the Blue series, I have got an inquiring mind,fill me in.
Also this RH WB Cinnamon Hen is autosomal recessive and not Sex linked ( Black Eyes)

Hi Kentucky,here we go again.The original AD retained the black bib and mask surround,only the back, wings and tail were diluted,hence it was called the AD Backed gouldian.The birds that are around today are mongrels if they are any different than what i mentioned above.

I did not say that blue was cinnamon,but i did say it was quite possibly split cinnamon to its sibling and the next generation could produce a cinnamon blue be it a darker blue or even a violet which would be nice.
Cinnamon doesn't change dark colours unless it is bred into fawn (hence yellow bodied stars) if it is bred into darker colours like blue it produces darker colours again,check out what the Indian ringneck breeders are doing with cinnamon mutations.
Back to the AD's,young AD's in the nest have red eyes but they lose this before they fledge and they are a dirty cream/fawn colour when they fledge and they moult out as i said above so you could say they are some sort of cinnamon but there not they are autosomal recessive.
I too believe the WB hen is autosomal recessive and if it is it will be an easy mutation to breed into the blues which is also autosmal recessive with means that the blue is a possible cinnamon split as i don't know the parentage.I don't know if the breeder noticed the colour of the hens eyes in the nest,they may have been red like the AD's so they might have a name challenge coming up but not cinnamon. Craig
Misso, i don't believe the white breast would make the black blacker in a AD or a so called cinnamon, WB makes body colour lighter/yellow and the black grey as in Euro yellows.

[KENTUCKY]

Hi Craig,
I cannot confirm your discription of the origional AD Backed Gouldian.
The late Ray Murray and Harold Lacey never had any ADs with Black Bibs in their Collection, I ought to know,
I hung around Ray and Harold like a Bee around a Honey Pot, after all, it was Ray that brought this Mutation down to Melbourne by Train from a Queensland Dealer as they appeared, and were sold to, this particular Dealer by this particular Breeder.
I also feel you erred in regards to young ADs still in the nest, I will accept a Plum coloured Eye Colour that will change to Black before too long, certainly not red as you pointed out,the Plum Eye Colour leads to suggest that there could be Cinnamon involved or even Lutinism, that needs to be proven yet.
I must also strongly object to the Term "Mongrel" I find it offensive and totally out of order.
Please be kinder the next time to the longest kept Mutation in our Aviaries, I myself have bred them for almost fourty years.
Cheers
Ralph

[Craig52]

Yes you are right,plum coloured eyes if we are picking at straws.

[garymc]

With regards to Don Crawfords birds, they were purchased (Don got out of gouldians at that stage) by a friend here in Kalgoorlie. Amongst the birds the were one or two BLACK headed white breasted birds with backs similar in colour to the red-headed white brested hen in the photo. A picture of one of these birds did appear in ABK. Of the purple chested dilutes among the 50 odd birds purchased there was some variation in the back colour from dilute to dilute.


It was probably 10+ years back but from memory Don indicated that putting the white breast throught the dilute also resulted in the re-intatement of the black pigment (as indicated in the black headed white breasted dilutes mention above).

I also seem to recall that Don was hoping to breed a "pastel" looking hens by going along this path (whereas the yellowback blue combinations only result in silver hens).

When we managed to breed from these birds the young did have the plum coloured eyes as mentioned earlier in the thread.

So for my guess I would say a red-headed white breasted recessive dilute and the second bird is a blue dilute combo

[finchbreeder]

Everything I am reading suggests both parents are split dilute. With cinnamon being unlikely because the birds are siblings, but not impossible. Because in mutations little is impossible.
All mutations after all arrive for the first time due to spontanious mutation. That's where the name comes from. What ever they are they look good and the best of luck developing the mutation.
LML

[Tiaris]

I've seen Aussie dilutes varying from barely diluted green to virtually creamy white in back colour. The degree of dilution of the black areas also seems to correspond with the degree of back colour dilution. A good photo example of this is in the latest QFS Finch News with a group of BH dilute birds with the greener ones showing sooty grey head with darker blackish chin & collar whereas the paler-backed bird 2nd from left has very pale grey over the whole head, chin & collar area.

[garyh]

Very interesting reading these posts,my belief is they are cinnamon,right back to the grand parents and siblings of last year they have never been with dilutes,they have always bred wb blues, pb blues,wb split blue gb and pb split blue gb,apart from the three colored birds shown,although the picture doesn't show it to well there is a distinct brownish tinge to the wing tip feathers in the hen bird,well that's my opinion, hopefully this year will prove it one way or the other,garyh