Seagreen Gouldians help with information

[okiebirds]

Anyone working with or own this mutation. My friend Juan Farratt is working with seagreens and is wanting to share information with others that own this mutation.
Also any articles addressing this mutation that anyone knows about would be very helpful. Thank you so much!

[finchbreeder]

Have you used the search button in the top right corner of this forum?
LML

[okiebirds]

Yes I did the search feature and was happy to find some discussion but I need to talk genetics with people that have owned or have experience breeding this mutation. I am doing ground work information gathering for a Dr. who does not speak English to assist him with his work in isolation of such genes with predictable reproduction and possible pioneering of advanced mutation. If I have violated forum etiquette please forgive me. Again any and all help greatly appreciated. Thank you

[casehulsebosch]

Belgium is THE place when it comes to Gouldian mutations.

I suggest you try www.gouldamadine.net

Google: natuurbroed gould amadines lievens and contact this breeder

or send an e mail to: [email protected]

most of the info on the web is in Dutch (you're not much if you're not Dutch) but they all speak good English so the language should not be a barrier.

Good luck,

Regards, Case, Tauranga, New Zealand.

[okiebirds]

Thank you very much for your help!

[okiebirds]

Has anyone been able to reproduce this mutation with predictable results based on parent phenotype? And if so what were they?

[Mr Tino]

Hi Stan when I breed these bird have a look at them they look like normal green bird with wash out blue through them and also there is a variation in the mount blue that go through them , you get your normal seagreen and you get seagreen that come from blue gene , by pairing blue to a seagreen split for blue these bird together you Will get a par blue which has intense blue on it back. Only thing I find with this mutation is not all but some I find they are weak gene and some I find they get the seagreen colour and then lose it ,that my experience with these type Gouldian finch ,still I am breed these birds to make them stronger , to breed more of these bird so we can use them to creat new colour in our future of our Gouldian finch I hope this will help you. Bye for now.

Cheer from Mr Tino

[okiebirds]

very helpful my friend!

[okiebirds]

THE LIPOCROMS DILUTION GENE OF THE GOULDIAN FINCH


seagreen gouldian finch

As usual, every time we writte a piece of an article we enter in polemics with some Gouldian breeders , but this is what gives us the right keys for the correct interpretation of the Genetics of Gouldian Finch.
The Lipocroms or carotenoids dilution gene have got the same inheritance or hereditary behavior than the Melanins dilution gene, but of course acting on lipocromic processes on the Gouldian.
This type of Gene has appeared in different parts of the world, mainly because its origin is the same one, this mutation it is known as Sea-green or Aqua and in other species is called ivory.
The lipocroms dilution gene (Sea-green) is the final result from a Crossing Over between the Melanins dilution gene (pastel) and the lipocroms wild gene ,we will try to imagine and to graphically represent how these Sea-green Goulds could arise.
For this, we will use the lipocroms dilution gene and the lipocroms wild gene (These will represent the Genetic processes)

LIPOCROMS WILD GENE :
(WL)

LIPOCROMS DILUTION GENE :
(DL)

But, alike to the Genetic sequence of Mantel Melanization we will use the Genetic sequence for the process that govern the lipocroms in the whole body of the bird.
This sequence will be autosomic free and it will be controlled by the Lipocroms dilution gene, we will use it with only two dilution stages (so we can represent the differences between one bird and another) . We give use to this sequence for the necessity of representing graphically the intermediate and total processes of Lipocroms dilution (quite similar to the Melanic processes that progressively Dilutes the body melanines)

THEN THE SEQUENCE WILL BE REPRESENTED THIS WAY (body lipocroms):
(bloo)
Then as we already know the Melanins wild gene , we will use it because it will be necessary now and later when we combine the Lipocroms dilution gene with the Melanins dilution gene, we made this mainly to demonstrate that they are two different processes that can interact together.
So the melanins wild gene is :
(Wm)
So the melanins dilution gene is:
(Dm)
How is it possiable that Sea-green mutations arise in so many different countries?
IT HAPPENS WHEN THE MELANINS DILUTION GENE IS RECOMBINED WITH THE LIPOCROMS WILD GENE¡¡¡¡
First we will represent a wild male using all the processes we mentioned before (without using the chest genes for now):

(Wm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mmoo)
-------------------- --------- -----------
(Wm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mmoo)



Then we will introduce the melanins dilution gene to this gouldian and now he will be represented this way:

(Dm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mmoo)
-------------------- --------- -----------
(Wm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mmoo)



But then, among so many and so many genetic recombinations we can obtain a crossin over between the melanins dilution gene and the lipocroms wild gene, (something similar happens with the Lutino gene when it governs the melanic processes on the mask and then he is recombined with the lipocromic processes on the mask),
And receiving the new genetic sequence a sea green in first dilution could be represented this way:
(Wm) (DL) X (Lc-o) (Mmoo)
-------------------- --------- -----------
(Wm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mmoo)



First SEA-GREEN

Then some genetic variants of some more diluted sea greens, that can be seen in two or three stages, by means of visual appreciation, they would be represented this way:
(Wm) (DL) X (Lc--) (Mmoo)
-------------------- --------- -----------
(Wm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mmoo)

Or this way:
(Wm) (DL) X (Lc--) (Mmoo)
-------------------- --------- -----------
(Wm) (WL) X (Lc-o) (Mmoo)

Or this way:
(Wm) (DL) X (Lc--) (Mmoo)
-------------------- --------- -----------
(Wm) (DL) X (Lc-o) (Mmoo)


Everything depends on the hereditary variations that are given regarding the genetic sequence for body lipocroms (Lc-o). It is the same behavior of the sequence for mantel melanizacion, when it is governed by the melanines dilution gene.
As we see all these are males.
So a female in first dilution for lipocroms will be represented this way:
(Wm) (DL) X (Lc-o) (Mmoo)
-------------------- --------- -----------
Y (Lcoo) (Mmoo)







Then having a better idea of this processes, we can represent our genetic work when we combine the lipocroms dilution gene with its creator, the melanins dilution gene.
When we show the pictures of sea green ( diluted lipocroms), together with the melanins dilution gene, we didn't really realize that without a logical explanation nobody would understand what they were looking at.

Then already knowing the graphic representation of a wild gould, also that of a green pastel(SFY) and that of a sea-green, then we will see how the formidable red headed, purple breasted, sea green , green pastel male is represented (the one we showed on Facebook):

(Wm) (DL) X (Lc-o) (Mmoo) (Bfoo)(Bmoo)
-------------------- --------- ----------- ------------------
(Dm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mm-o) (Bf-o)(Bm-o)

Let s remember the purple breasted secuence will be represented with two process (breast feomelanization and Breast melanization).

Here the first simple factor yellow plus Sea-green gouldian.


And if we want to represent one of his children, red headed, White breasted, pastel yellow, sea green , it would be this way:

(Wm) (DL) X (Lc-o) (Mmoo) (Bf--)(Bm--)
-------------------- --------- ----------- ------------------
(Dm) (WL) X (Lcoo) (Mm-o) (Bf--)(Bm--)


As we already know, the white breast helps largely to the dilution of the melanins on the body.
Here we have not represented the processes on the mask because we are not interested on them now.
Regarding the sea green yellow females, they will always have one melanins dilution gene and one lipocroms dilution gene , but two free autosomic zonal genes and they will be inheritable and diluted progressively by the dilution genes, that which can give us several tonalities of pastel seagreen females ..

Let us give two examples of pastel seagreen females (dilution of the lipocroms plus dilution of the melanins).
(Dm) (DL) X (Lc-o) (Mm-o) (Bf-o)(Bm-o)
-------------------- --------- ----------- ------------------
Y (Lcoo) (Mmoo) (Bfoo)(Bmoo)


That would be a pastel seagreen female of first generación,compared to a pastel female .
We may observe the goods of the Sea-green gene on the mantel, where it is appreciated green colors, yellowish and blue in less proportion.

But if a female receives double inheritance of diluted body lipocromos and of diluted mantel melanins, then we would almost have an ivory female (SFY plus blue), this way:

(Dm) (DL) X (Lc-o) (Mm-o) (Bf-o)(Bm-o)
-------------------- --------- ----------- ------------------
Y (Lc-o) (Mm-o) (Bfoo)(Bmoo)



Here it is observed that there are present carotenoids still on the beak and on the mask for this Sea-green female, carotenes that an ivory female has not (two blue genes plus yellow factor).. also in this picture it is appreciated more lipocrom on the mantel. (This picture can be seen enlarged on my Facebook page)
Other genetic variants also exist for this very same female like the following one:
(Dm) (DL) X (Lc--) (Mm--) (Bf--)(Bm--)
-------------------- --------- ----------- ------------------
Y (Lc-o) (Mm-o) (Bfoo)(Bmoo)

And other more, but we won't represent them now with pictures..

As final summary, we can outline that the Dilution gene of the Lipocroms creates a blue bird gradually, something similar to the recessive blue mutation, but like we know this recessive blue mutation has totally inactived the lipocromic processes of the bird. Both mutations have much in common and it should be identified by the Intermediate Dilution of the Lipocroms that makes the Sea-green mutation since the recessive blue is complete.

Both mutations can be identified in different periods of breeding, Examples:
The color of the eggs is white (IF THE FEMALES are BLUE OR SEA-GREEN)... the yellow color of the yolk is light.. and the pigeons have the central knobby papillae of the mouth of white color... it is absent of carotene.. and their color of skin is pink.. both mutations are the same in this phase...chicks showing differences on the color of the beack, legs and fingernails... starting from the day 9 of having been born. The pigeons of Sea-green begin to see, small carotene tonalities through the rich feeding of the same one, the pigeons Sea-green acquire 50% carotene more than the pigeons of recessive blue since this mutation doesn't allow the liver to produce lipocroms .
As always, we write this article to give answers to our own curiosity and for that of all the facebook friends.
Greetings
Juan Farrat Acanda
&
Diliam Gil Reyes

[Mr Tino]

Hi Stan it was excellent piece of information you gave on us on the seagreen Gouldian finch,I had a good read through it .

Cheer from Mr Tino