Should trapping be permitted.

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E Orix
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Location: Howlong on NSW/Vic Border 30km from Albury
Location: Howlong NSW

Rather than take over the earlier post "price of Orange Cheeks" I thought I should comment here.
There was a comment made that it would be preferred that they be aviary bred.
Here in Australia I totally agree but where did the Orange Cheeks come from.
All would be wild trapped yes, but; did they come from a feral population located in or near the Caribbean or
from Africa. If so then my opinion changes, if they are a feral population it would most likely assist the local avian fauna.
If trapped in Africa once again I am not totally against it.
Africa will always supply trapped birds because there will most likely be a country in turmoil or many over there have a total
disregard for their Fauna period !!
I received an email approx. two weeks ago, it came from a well know Sth. African avian breeder.
The following is a loose copy of his email.

"Just purchased 51 cock Paradise Whydahs and 23 hens from a local. I will just set up a big display.
This is probably a disgrace but it is different on this side of the world. Locals catch them for the pot."

He would have paid under $50 for the lot, but this is not an isolated case it happens basically 24/7 some where over there.
Maybe if there was an international market at least they would be of value. I am aware that there would be pressure on the wild birds near
population but Africa is one big place. Maybe even some of the locals would start to take notice of their fauna.
This is not just happening in Africa a few years ago I was at an American bird clearing facility and I made the comment that they had a large number
of Indigo Buntings. The cage was full of these bright blue birds, when I asked where they came from I was told south of the Border(Mexico I guess).
Then I asked why were they all males, not one female, the answer was, they sell the male birds and eat the drab brown females because they
don't think they are of value. My comment was why don't you get them to freight females and was told "we have given up asking"
It sad but it is happening
It's a pity that here in Australia the governing bodies don't appreciate what level we hold with regard our local fauna.
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iaos
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Location: Newcastle, NSW
Location: Newcastle, NSW

I have fairly strong opinions on the issue.

IMO feral populations are fair game. I also don't have a particular issue with catching of wild birds for personal consumption be that eating or keeping in an aviary. To me it's no different to fishing. I do have an issue with the mass catching of birds for export. I also don't believe that if the birds had a higher value that would be looked after in a higher regard, it hasn't work for elephants and rhinos.

Until recently wild caught birds freely entered the UK. Minimal effort was put into captive breeding and if one of the pair died you went down to the dealer a picked up a replacement. Birds were treated as disposable. On foreign forums they still moan "oh I wish we could import this or I wish we could import that", they are speaking of species for which thousands of have previously been imported and they had limited or no breeding success. IMO, they had their chance and now they should focus on establishing what remains not dreaming of what they had.

Cheers Ian
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COUNTRY CAPITAL
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It seems that as the human population increases the chances of survival of everything else diminishes....
Not sure if I would rather be eaten or exported....the latter probably but to me neither is desirable.
We cannot change the past and I know that's how our original stock came to be in our aviaries but is it sustainable?
The living things that we share this world with are in for a rough future unless we can moderate our impact on mother nature.
I hope future generations are still able to enjoy our birds as we can, yes I would like some pintail nonpareils or even orange-cheeks but not if it results in their demise in the wild.
I try and be satisfied with what I have and consider it a privilege to have them.
Sustainability is my dream....wish them luck.
CC
Aussie finch tragic.rodent/snake terroriser.
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E Orix
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Location: Howlong on NSW/Vic Border 30km from Albury
Location: Howlong NSW

Just throwing it open for discussion.
By the way I have never been in favour of unrestricted imports into Australia.
I won't worry about how many decades it was but I was approach by a representative of the Govt. asking me to prepare
a proposal and format for the possibility of Avian (finch) imports. After having produce an in depth format I think it went into a drawer
under the too hard basket. Not hard to implement it but no one outside the bird keepers would put there hand up officially to support it.
Off the record no problems.
My proposal was based on a person could import 10 birds each of 3 species every 4 years. It would be a group import to offset costs with a mechanism
for disposal if forced upon the person and a method to limit who could import so abusing the system could be limited.
But years go on and we still dream.
iaos I understand your position and I have no answer.
Recently I spent a month in the Sth African National Parks with a top photographer and it was staggering how little respect a large proportion
of the local population have for their magnificent wild life. If their treatment continues I would hate to see the result in 10 years possibly less.
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finchbreeder
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Worldwide. Trap feral populations and reintroduce them to aviculture (environmentally friendly), either in the location in which they are trapped (might not be much demand) or in other locations. Also allow trapping of populations that are overabundent (correllas in some locations) Make restricted habitats of endangered species into Nature reserves employing locals so they get money to buy food and don't have to trap the endangered species for dinner. More effort to teach the young about extinction, once its gone its gone. And anything we could of gained from it is also gone. Simplistic and idealistic? Yes. But I can dream of a better attitude and world.
LML
LML
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Rox
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I'm South African and yes, I have wild caught African waxbills. Birds indigenous to SA are kept on permit (I have been inspected by Cape Nature and permits are renewed every 2 years), while birds outside of SA are a free for all to whoever can afford them. Do I like it and approve of trapping? No. If I had the choice, I would buy aviary bred birds (like I did with my Blue-breasted cordon bleu's) but sadly, aviary bred waxbills are not that easy to come across because they require effort to breed them in captivity. I chose to focus on waxbills because a) I think they are fascinating and b) my father bred them when I was a kid and I knew about their challenges in advance. I feel that if I can successfully get the species breeding in captivity, then I will be doing my little bit for the bird world. If I'm not successful in breeding them, at least I know my birds are outdoors in an aviary and not in a small cage like so many end up in.

The sad reality is that most people don't care about our native wildlife and this stretches up all the way into Africa. As mentioned above, our governments can't even protect the rhino's and elephant's, so what focus will they put onto birds? Very little, if non at all. Even the inspectors from Cape Nature are stretched so thin that they can't keep track off all movements in the Western Cape. I do my bit by reporting pet shops when I see them selling indigenous birds without permits (probably caught in someone's backyard) and I will only sell my indigenous birds on permit.

South Africa is one of the highest exporters of captive bred African Grey's in the world but also one of the biggest importers of wild caught parrots. Why? Because you can trap adult birds which will start breeding a lot quicker than buying captive bred youngsters and waiting a couple of years to mature. Quicker return on investment. Every time I see adverts for 50+ pairs of Greys for sale for a low price, I know immediately they are wild caught.

It's all about the money unfortunately.
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SamDavis
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Rox wrote:... I do my bit by reporting pet shops when I see them selling indigenous birds without permits (probably caught in someone's backyard) and I will only sell my indigenous birds on permit...
Hi Rox,
I'm interested to hear how your indigenous bird permit system operates. How can you determine if a "pet shop" bird is or is not captive bred?
Regards,
Sam
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Rox
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Sam, unless the bird is closed ringed or you buy directly from a reputable breeder, you don't know.

Indigenous birds need to be held and transported on permit. This means that pet shops need to a) be permit holders themselves and b) they need to apply for a transport permit in the name of the buyer before the bird can be physically moved. The buyer then needs to obtain a holding permit or add the bird to their existing permit. Obtaining a transport permit here in the Western Cape can take up to 3-4 weeks. Some pet shops either don't know about the need to have permits or they just ignore it. The customer wants to take the bird home then and there and not wait a couple of weeks. I always ask the pet shops if they have a permit to hold the indigenous birds and the blank look I usually get is enough of an answer. I have reported 2 of my local pet shops for illegally dealing in indigenous birds (selling without permits) but I have yet to see any action taking by authorities. I have no problem with them trading the birds, as long as they do it legally.
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mccabe_07
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In my opinion feral birds are fair game, I also believe that bird clubs should be allowed to put in for a permit to trap/import a LIMITED number of finches when its deemed fit that the aviary populations genetic pool is questionable. This would have to be monitored by the club but I can see someone like the QFS would be all over it. I guess the other issues with my belief is not just anybody should be given the birds, a plan would have to be in place to secure diverse gene pool outcomes, who monitors the gene pool prior to needing the permit and how can someone who knows nothing of aviculture be allowed to grant a permit without knowledge on the subject. Its a tough issue. I know currently in Canberra there is a limited number of breeders that some gene pools just continue to circle. I can't buy a Cordon in Canberra now as all my related birds are spread throughout and I understand that this is easily sorted by me freighting from interstate but that's not the case with all birds and plenty of people aren't willing to do that and will happily swap/buy birds without caring where they come from. This is just an example not me saying I need Australia to import Cordons I can source them from plenty of places outside of Canberra
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Diane
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mccabe_07 wrote: I also believe that bird clubs should be allowed to put in for a permit to trap/import a LIMITED number of finches when its deemed fit that the aviary populations genetic pool is questionable. This would have to be monitored by the club but I can see someone like the QFS would be all over it
Your idea would probably fit well with what the QFS are already doing with certain species already to help build up the numbers of species they feel are under threat.
Being able to source from the wild or import would no doubt be a very welcome addition to this project.
Diane
The difference between Genius and Stupidity is, Genius has it’s limits
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