Aus Yellow Gouldian Split to Blue

[alvin]

Putting AY to AY blue split or AY to Blue is not a good idea, they are both recessive genes and must be kept apart (my Opinion). AY gene overpowers the blue gene, so you will result in no blues, but birds that are split for AY. I bred a hen with a cock that had a tiny white spot under the beak (AY split Blue) the hen had produced blues the year before with a different cock. so both guaranteed split blues. offspring - 18 young, everyone of them showed white feathers, being AY spilt, but no blue. I don't keep the AY. I think people trying to breed the AY blue are contaminating the Blue gene ( again my opinion), even though the ones I have spoken to, say they keep their AY blues and splits separate to their other blue and spilt birds

[Craig52]

Putting AY to AY blue split or AY to Blue is not a good idea, they are both recessive genes and must be kept apart (my Opinion). AY gene overpowers the blue gene, so you will result in no blues, but birds that are split for AY. I bred a hen with a cock that had a tiny white spot under the beak (AY split Blue) the hen had produced blues the year before with a different cock. so both guaranteed split blues. offspring - 18 young, everyone of them showed white feathers, being AY spilt, but no blue. I don't keep the AY. I think people trying to breed the AY blue are contaminating the Blue gene ( again my opinion), even though the ones I have spoken to, say they keep their AY blues and splits separate to their other blue and spilt birds

Imo,you are right alvin.I have not bred this mutation (AYB) and i believe that you on average,you get one AYB out of 16 young so there is 15 young that will be sold as AY's as you can't tell a split blue.
I also believe,that young AYB has a 10% of survival rate which is due to its poor genetics but some make it and it will be a long time before breeders get them established but in the mean time there will be a lot split blue,split AY's around flooding the market with their double split mutation genes.
I do know someone with a pr of AYB's setup to breed and it will be very interesting to know the results,will the young be all AYB's or splits or will they make it out of the egg? time will tell i suppose. Craig

[garyh]

There is a breeder on this forum that bred AYB to AYB last year,all the young were AYB,16 birds were bred but only 2 survived ,the rest died at different stages,to me it proves that it is a true mutation ,but very weak,i do not agree that putting AY to blue is wrong and you are only going to get AY split ,i have bred all the combinations of these birds ,blues are quite easily bred and most come with the white dot meaning it is also split AY,l see no reason for not breeding AY to BLUE other than the huge amount of birds split to AY,i don't breed these birds any more ,working on something different,and in the end difficult to sell off,i agree that there will be a lot of birds sold off as PURE in the future ,so a lot off trust will be needed when purchasing new birds,to see record books will become a must imo,garyh

[alvin]

Gary if 16 AYB were bred and 2 survived, that proves my point, what is going to make this mutation stronger ? We have 2 established mutations here, AY and Blue. About 6-8 years ago all the blue Gouldian breeders birds were mixed with AY in WA. (the ones I new), and there weren`t many around. Guys were being accusing breeders of selling normals in the place of splits as they bred no blues year after year with these birds (and they were guaranteed splits, but split to AY as well). I bought Blues and splits from Sydney. no signs of AY, though have bred a cock with a tiny white patch under the bib, 2014 bred a dilute hen, from when she started to colour I could see she was different, so there you go my blues are mixed with everything. Its up to me to out cross to build stronger blue genes.

[Tiaris]

Very regular outcrossing is clearly the key to strengthening recessive mutations & I think most good Gouldian mutation breeders know and practice this. A largely unavoidable problem arises when combining two recessive mutations of any species as they need to be re-combined within the stock of birds carrying both mutations over several generations in order to reach establishment point for the new combination (within a reasonable period). Some treat this as a race with little or no regard for the consequences in terms of the quality of bird produced (as long as it carries the mutant colour) or the many split & double split birds produced and contaminating already muddied genetic waters for the species generally. The difficulty in achieving this is added to if both the recessive mutations used are not already robust via their own independent recent outcrossing using decent quality normal genotype birds (not just any old normal phenotype Gouldian regardless of its quality) and is made harder by the fact that to outcross during the establishment phase of the combination takes a very significant backward step if going back to normal birds as outcrosses. So continuing to establish the combination whilst maintaining some acceptable level of genetic strength requires partially "outcrossing" to best available quality birds of one of the 2 recessive mutations being combined - ideally the one with the more robust birds available. Not quick or easy, hence the challenge. My guess is that challenge will be ongoing too as the combined new colour once established still requires the strengthening thereafter which very few breeders seem prepared to undertake when they have just paid big money for a new mutation/combination as they just want to get more of that colour on the perch asap.

[garyh]

Hi Alvin,agree with some of what you wrote but not all,i found that by putting Ay to blue you bred very strong blues and splits,maybe even a little larger than normal,this is also backed up by a lot of breeders of these birds,at least in Victoria,you wrote that Ay over powers blue,so will result in no blues,in my experience this was definitely not the case,the bird in question is very nice looking imo,but as i said the amount of birds bred to achieve this bird is huge,i think you made a very good point on buying birds from NSW,i will say no more on that,to strengthen the bird you really have to start all over again ,hence more birds to sell off,it's a merry go round at the moment,garyh

[alvin]

Well said Tiaris, Gary, I did not say AY split Blue produced no blue, that was a particular case of 2 pairs of splits bought from a breeder here in WA. If 2 out of 16 survived, how strong are these birds. With regard to me saying I bought blues from Sydney is by no means an advertisement to say don`t buy birds from Melbourne. Yourself, Tony, Paul and Flavio are recognised as some of the top blue breeders in Melbourne. Those blues I got from Sydney were also Bengalese raised. The problem is 1 out of 16 is AYB and the other 15 are AYB splits and possible AYB splits, these birds are then sold, put to blues, blue splits, AYB splits and the gene pool grows. I just don`t see the purpose in mixing AY and the dilute mutations with the blue mutation. The blue breeders here in Perth are also mixing them. just makes buying splits for out crossing more difficult. anyway each to his own.

[finchbreeder]

I can only say I have not mixed these 2 mutations. But the genetic law of averages says you will get = numbers of AY and Blue in the young, if you do not this is coincidence. Just as if you flip a coin and do not get = heads and tails that is coincidence. If the young do not survive that is a completely different equasion. Failure to survive has noting to do with the mutation and everything to do with the birds fittness. As has been said by others, use the strongest bird you have to any mutation you with to establish.
LML

[Tiaris]

If there is inherent weakness within a mutation this will certainly affect failure to survive.

[elferoz777]

I think we should focus on strengthen ing the individual mutations. The blue back is inherently weak courtesy of the poor breeding methods used to establish them. Ay can go either way depending on who sells them to you.

at least with ay you dont check the floor before the perches every day like with young blue birds.

Just my opinion but I dont believe we should further ruin the blue by adfing ay, lime or dilute to their already sub par immune system.

Hopefully in a few yews we can reap the benefits of the dedicated breeders that are trying to fix them now.