Too Domesticated?

[vettepilot_6]

Just noticed today of all things a couple of Goulds fledged and flying around aviary....Thought they would be moulting by now... also can hear Star babies as well....so much for them not breeding when overcrowded... plus last week young painteds as well...maybe our inmates are a long way from their forebears..

[Craig52]

Imo, i don't believe that,gouldians maybe. Any bird will breed if the conditions are right and the right foods are fed. Well done any way. Craig

[GregH]

Maintaining a population with the same mix of genes as found in the wild reminds me of the Hardy–Weinberg principle I learned in genetics some time last century: Without immigration, emigration or selection the proportion of genes in a population remains constant. What this mean for us is that no matter how hard you try to keep a domestic flock "normal" they will invariably change over generations to adapt to the conditions that they face under domestication as they are different to the wild and if they fail to then they will go extinct. Wild populations are constantly changing too - a fact that conservation programs often fail to consider.

If you consider the Gouldian. In the wild I suspect the oldest dominant type is the red-faced form. The black-faced mutant occurs in larger numbers now because it does not trigger the aggression of the red which decreases it's reproductive potential and the two forms appear to be on the verge of speciation. Taken from the wild and highly inbred other colour mutations have arisen and although purists might studiously eliminate them from their collections they aren't doing the same for "washed out" types that do occur in the wild and who checks their digestive or liver enzymes as long as they can live on dry seed. Keepers in southern Australia are surely grateful to have selections that tolerate colder weather - look at the reputation this bird had for hardiness until quite recently because they are a tropical bird not at all adapted to the Netherlands and Tasmania.

If the wild populations aren't able to cope with climate change they will go extinct and aviculture can give us insight into which species are at more risk. If our birds are changing breeding habits it's not necessarily a bad thing. Selection in the wild and in the aviary often means death - who hasn't had nests cooked in summer if built directly under the roof of an aviary and who hasn't lost nestlings that fledge early in winter. It's two sides of the same coin and we shouldn't necessarily mourn over the loss but celebrate survival as that is how life propagates.

[werty]

bloody brilliant post gregh

Gouldian breeders are so worried that the Gouldian in captivity is changing

the wild Gouldian is also changing, life evolves, if it didn't dinosaurs would be roaming around

[finchbreeder]

Thanks for the excellent and though inducing article Greg. Evolution of the species, all species, has been going on for over 2000 years.
LML

[GregH]

Ah but anything more than 6000 years would be absurd

[Tiaris]

Interesting and insightful account of the Gouldian Finch. I still strenuously contest the order of the head colours though, and totally disbelieve the red head colour "phenomenon". It has not been established that red head colour results in reduced rearing rates at all. It has been claimed in the very short term research on this topic that mixed head colour pairs have reduced peproductive success, an imbalance of sexes in progeny and genetic incompatibility (all of which I am still very sceptical) but not that reds have lower reproductive success per se & I know of no research to attempt to establish this let alone determine that their reproductive failure is so catastrophic that it totally over-rides their significant genetic advantage of a dominant mode of inheritance over black-headed Gouldians. This is totally implausible to me.
The proportion of reds in wild stocks has increased notably over just the last 50 years and blacks compose the vast majority (yet declining) proportion of wild birds which when combined with the genetic modes of inheritance of each head colour are powerfully compelling indicators that blacks are the original form of which the reds appeared/mutated/ or were introduced via a parrotfinch ancestor hybrid.

[Craig52]

Interesting and insightful account of the Gouldian Finch. I still strenuously contest the order of the head colours though, and totally disbelieve the red head colour "phenomenon". It has not been established that red head colour results in reduced rearing rates at all. It has been claimed in the very short term research on this topic that mixed head colour pairs have reduced peproductive success, an imbalance of sexes in progeny and genetic incompatibility (all of which I am still very sceptical) but not that reds have lower reproductive success per se & I know of no research to attempt to establish this let alone determine that their reproductive failure is so catastrophic that it totally over-rides their significant genetic advantage of a dominant mode of inheritance over black-headed Gouldians. This is totally implausible to me.
The proportion of reds in wild stocks has increased notably over just the last 50 years and blacks compose the vast majority (yet declining) proportion of wild birds which when combined with the genetic modes of inheritance of each head colour are powerfully compelling indicators that blacks are the original form of which the reds appeared/mutated/ or were introduced via a parrotfinch ancestor hybrid.

Yes i believe the same Tiaris, having perused the the pics of gouldians in the last count,blacks outnumber reds at least 5 to one. Imo, reds are a mutation to the gouldian finch as are yellows the mid morpeth between the two.
I really do not believe that a parrot finch hybridized to get the red head,the gouldian finch is the only genesis or distant related to, to inhabit desert like conditions where all the parrot finches inhabit high humidity rain forests.
They may just have appeared or imo mutated.
Also, if you have a look in most breeders aviaries of gouldians the majority breed red heads so in captivity there are more red heads than in the wild so if this were the case you would think that there would be a lot less bred red heads due to aggression and infertility. So domestication is a big factor imo.
Craig

[vettepilot_6]

Same...I think the 3 head colours were interspersed like other Aussie finches (the star comes to mind) and over the years their area got closer so they interbred.... ...On another note first clutch of stars have just jumped...

[Tiaris]

I really do not believe that a parrot finch hybridized to get the red head,the gouldian finch is the only genesis or distant related to, to inhabit desert like conditions where all the parrot finches inhabit high humidity rain forests.
They may just have appeared or imo mutated.
Craig

Maybe so Craig, but also I think a hybrid is a distinct possibility though (as is a mutation) as: Australia's vegetation/climate has only recently in ecological terms become more arid at the same time that New Guinea & other polynesian islands have become more separate from Australia's landmass, the red head is dominant so an original fertile hybrid would pass it on dominantly when repeatedly outcrossed to other Gouldians, Gouldians are definitely loosely related to parrotfinches, & just look at the red face mask & surrounding black collar in turn surrounded by a pale blue suffusion on Peale's PF for a remarkable example of similarity to a RH Gouldian in the head area. Just keeping an open mind on something which is logically plausible.