Silver-Marked-White type Zebra mutation - how was this made?

Includes Species Profile.
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AMCA26
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Back to its Mother or a Normal. What were the Parents of his bird?
Breeding Show Zebra Finches, Blue Gouldians, Pied Orange Breast.
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Finchy
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This whole thread is about trying to figure out who his parents are. (He was born during peak season while I was away for several weeks, so he and his generation have no leg rings.)

Even if I knew who his mother was I would not dream of pairing him with her(!) As in, if you have a very good-looking son would you pair him with your wife? There's good reason we instinctively recoil at this idea - it's a genetic disaster. It takes quite a few generations to put things right genetically, and only then by breeding with unrelated birds so I might as well start out using unrelated birds, especially as this seems to be a dominant gene. I'm really surprised to hear people suggesting mating kids with their parents, as I didn't think anyone would be doing that any more.

I will opt for an unrelated Normal, as that should help a lot with understanding what's going on.
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finchbreeder
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If you are free range breeding, your birds are almost certainly breeding to their siblings, as they do in nature. Its people who do not understand natural selection. No I do not suggest it should be done all the time. But breeding mother to son for one season is how you produce enough genetic material to continue a new mutation. I've been doing it successfully for over 20yrs.
LML
LML
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Tiaris
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I've never put a mother to son & never will. The best way to establish a new colour/combination (IMO) is the patient way which puts quality & genetic strength first & foremost, ie. to outcross to the best quality normal birds available to breed known splits, then to another unrelated normal to make some unrelated (partly) splits & proceed from there. I have always thought the notion of producing as many "coloured" birds first & then improve later is a load of BS as the quality of the mutation thus developed is usually a weak bird where the improvement work is never done later.
This Zebra Finch is most likely a combination of at least 2 mutations within the mixed aviary, but it may be a mix of colours which are not seen on any of the birds but rather in the split genes carried so the phenotypes (appearance) of the possible parent birds are not necessarily the full range of mutations in the mix.
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Finchy
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To give a sense of scale to the damage done by inbreeding, consider what happens in human inbred lines. These figures are from multi-generational marriages of first cousins, with occasional outcrossing, as occurs at a very high rate in some Eastern cultures:

11 times the rate of birth defects
18 times the rate of recessive genetic disorders
4 times the rate of mental retardation, and an average of 10-16 IQ points lost across the population

And that's just children of cousins with some outcrosses - something most of us do with our birds fairly regularly. Hence the notion of parent-child matings fills me with horror, as it's genetically even more devastating.

The IQ aspect is very interesting as it's something I've observed in most of the blue Gouldians, and somewhat in split blues, that I have kept. Not only were they extremely immunologically vulnerable, but they also appeared to have cognitive deficits - a lack of mental spark and survival-related behavioural adaptability. It's not often talked about but it was clear to me in all but a couple of them.

So I agree with Tiaris. There's no excuse in this day and age, knowing what we know, for intentional close breeding. Several pedigree dog breeds are actually dying out due to breeding from narrow gene pools. Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot. Line breeding for financial greed or show bench points is unacceptably short-sighted, and unnecessary for birds with such short generational cycles.
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finchbreeder
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I think we have a little misunderstanding here. In breeding I do is only a once then outcross process. To ensure enough genetic material. Mother to son is very rarely used. But in the case that started this thread it seemed the natural one, as it would seem (unless I have misunderstood) that this is the only relative that can be posatively identified. Always but always the individual birds must be assessed. No breeder would put two weakly looking birds together. But we all regularly put healthy robust birds together. If you did not know if the birds were related or not this is how you would assess them as potential partners. Strong stock breeds strong stock, weak stock breeds weak stock. Genetics is relavant within that, but not despite that. So two strong related birds will produce better stock than two weak unrelated birds. Lets not let their genetics blind us to everything else. PS It's your bird, do what you are happy with doing. The rest of us just get to offer alternative oppinions and suggestions.
LML
LML
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Craig52
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I tend to agree with FB, a classic example was when i sent GMc 2 split fawn painteds in exchange for a pr of lesser red brows. These to split fawn painteds were brother and sister. It was agreed that i send the rest of my split fawns later on down the track but i became very ill.
In the meantime GMc decided to breed this pr together just so he could get some coloured young on the perch to outcross to normals of which did.
A few weeks later i was able to send the last of my split painteds over to Gmc only to hear that the whole 13 of them had escaped at the Perth airport due to mishandling.
Gmc has been able to breed and and move on many fawn painteds from the two split siblings he received in an earlier shipment. He spent many months outcrossing the coloured birds to strong normal blood to produce very strong pink and yellow fawn painteds.
You cannot use humans as an example of bad inbred genes compared to birds, it's a very different scenario. Birds can inbreed for many generations and an example of this are sparrows,starlings,greenfinches, goldfinches,indian minors and the list goes on which includes rabbits and foxes. I haven't seen any spastics of either and very little mutations of any of them.
It's imo the you have been breeding your zebs in a colony in the same way as all these introduced birds have bred in the wild so what you are saying is totally false as you been doing it all along to produce something out of the ordinary that you don't know the parents of.
This my opinion only and one of many but FB is right, it's your bird do what you think is right as we are only giving an opinion. Craig
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Tiaris
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Finchbreeder raises an excellent point. An outcross to a normal genotype bird is only beneficial if, and only if, the normal genotype bird used is a superior physical specimen than is the mutation bird being outcrossed. Many believe that any normal bird as an outcross is a beneficial improvement to a breeding program and some really crap normals are used to this end as outcrosses which only serves to reinforce poor quality in the birds being produced. It may enhance the productive capacity and genetic vigour of the stud but does absolutely nothing toward improving the quality of bird being produced. Only the very best normal specimens available should be used as outcrosses in order to produce decent quality progeny. Then the usual process of selecting only the very best progeny to breed from into the future is the way to continually improve the flock going forward.
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Tiaris
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Craig, your example of the Fawn Painteds is a very good one, but the outcrossing which GMc did to establish them is all too rare these days when most with a new mutation treat it as a race to build up numbers of coloured birds to get to sales $ with scant regard for the quality of the bird being offered.
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arthur
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Craig52 wrote: Birds can inbreed for many generations and an example of this are sparrows,starlings,greenfinches, goldfinches,indian minors and the list goes on . . (with) . . very little mutations of any of them.
I'm off- topic again . .

But it is not inbreeding that causes mutations to appear

This is a commonly held misconception . . and one of the reasons for some to regard mutation breeders as second-class citizens of 'Birdland'

If a flock, no matter what its size, does not carry mutant genes for a particular trait, in any bird, then you can inbreed until your nose bleeds, and no mutations expressing that trait will be forthcoming

BUT . .

If a flock carries mutant genes for the same characteristic, but in different birds, then inbreeding makes it more likely that two matching genes will eventually occur in the same bird, and a mutation will 'turn up'
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