grit

[finchbreeder]

I use beach or river sand, and put a chunk of limestone and some charcol from the fire in. Not always all at once depends what I can get my hands on most easily at the time. (And naturally the crushed eggshells. Was reluctant at first, but so many seemed to be doing it without problems that I was converted to it, and now do so regularly. Just using what comes from the eggs we eat.)
LML

[Craig52]

Stewart, i know all three of those people personally and i'm pretty sure they would agree with both Tiaris and myself. Things are done very differently in the UK with mostly cabinet breeding and i suppose with paper or nothing on the floor for easy cleaning. I don't need to be proven wrong with the insoluble grit as i am speaking from experience with what my birds eat. Cheers Craig

[STUART WHITING]

[quote="STUART WHITING" Wrote:
What would make me feel happier is a full explanatory PDF file or similar from some we'll known avian vets or very high up bird / finch experts like Mike fidler, Marcus pollard and Bill van patten or such like and see what they think

Hi Stuart...

Most of the long standing AFF forum members have the advantage of knowing the identities of those giving their opinions and knowledge here. I, like you, am relatively new here but I've quickly been able to assess the weight of respect afforded to our more experienced contributors. I'm sure that when you've been here a little longer you will agree with me when I suggest that you could include Tiaris in the company of those esteemed finch experts named in the last line of your post.
[/quote]






Well yes I'd actually say that yer very much correct there, I may well be new to the forum but certainly not new to bird keeping, about 37 years now

Incidentally Tiaris is actually one of the main members who I am definitely taking notice of and is on me freinds list as it clearly shows that Tiaris is definitely an experienced finch breeder

Was just basically stating it'd be good to get other input on this particular subject as many people have vast experience with birds throughout most of there lives but the grit debate still lies untouched and is still in the dark for many

[STUART WHITING]

Stewart, i know all three of those people personally and i'm pretty sure they would agree with both Tiaris and myself. Things are done very differently in the UK with mostly cabinet breeding and i suppose with paper or nothing on the floor for easy cleaning. I don't need to be proven wrong with the insoluble grit as i am speaking from experience with what my birds eat. Cheers Craig

Hi Craig,

Thank you so very much with yer input and response,

If yerself and Tiaris are adamant about the use of soluble grit I can go along with that as my belief is that many Australian finch breeders and exhibitors are far more superior than us in England, although we've obviously got experience in many different aspects I still think that many of you still have that little extra edge compared to us here in England,

Firstly you've got the much warmer climate to breed the finches and secondly many Australian bird keepers seem to have more space available to have a good selection of flights etc, yes we do have flights aswell but many of us are often limited to space unless you have loads of money and have a lot of land available.

If you personally know Mike, Mark and bill and are convinced that they would agree as to the use of soluble grit I can accept this, over the last couple of years I've been informed about this debate and have had all sorts of different info and responses thrown at me and has made the issue rather confusing at times as it's been difficult in knowing exactly in what to believe,

Admittedly a lot of the info I mentioned had come from the States ( America ) but I've also learned over the years that many do seem to exaggerate about a lot of stuff in the States and don't appear to be in the same league as compared to serious and experienced bird fanciers in England, throughout Europe and aswell as Australia.

The weirdest part of it Craig is that for many years I've always fed soluble grit and had know problems but it's been others around the world with different views on this that has completely thrown me

After yer last response I'm now leaning towards yer rekoning

Quick question though Craig, what soluble would you prefer to use, here in England we get bags of very small mineral grit, the sort that you'd often see being sold for budgies etc, or would you prefer to use a type of sand

With many thanks

[BrettB]

Here in Perth we live on a coastal sand plain, not much more than beach sand really. Almost all of the aviaries use this for the floor, no problems with drainage. I could not stop my birds from eating it, even if I wanted to.
However we do not seem to have any problems with impacted grit in the finches, not that I have heard of anyway.

Like you Stuart, I like to contrast conventional wisdom with scientific research. Not to prove conventional wisdom wrong, but to try and better understand what makes it right. Unfortunately there is precious little research done on any birds other than chickens and certainly not much on finches.

I suspect the issue with grit impaction is less to do with the grit and more to do with other management practices. As you said, you have never had the problem, so thumbs up for your management.

If you do find any research, I would love to see it as well

For calcium , my birds seem to prefer egg shell. They also have access to cuttlefish bone, I try to avoid putting stuff in the water.
They are kept in an outdoors aviary, so plenty of access to sunshine and exercise.
My simplistic logic is that if you want to provide the perfect balance for making eggshell, then egg shell is probably it

Cheers
Brett

[STUART WHITING]

Here in Perth we live on a coastal sand plain, not much more than beach sand really. Almost all of the aviaries use this for the floor, no problems with drainage. I could not stop my birds from eating it, even if I wanted to.
However we do not seem to have any problems with impacted grit in the finches, not that I have heard of anyway.

Like you Stuart, I like to contrast conventional wisdom with scientific research. Not to prove conventional wisdom wrong, but to try and better understand what makes it right. Unfortunately there is precious little research done on any birds other than chickens and certainly not much on finches.

I suspect the issue with grit impaction is less to do with the grit and more to do with other management practices. As you said, you have never had the problem, so thumbs up for your management.

If you do find any research, I would love to see it as well

For calcium , my birds seem to prefer egg shell. They also have access to cuttlefish bone, I try to avoid putting stuff in the water.
They are kept in an outdoors aviary, so plenty of access to sunshine and exercise.
My simplistic logic is that if you want to provide the perfect balance for making eggshell, then egg shell is probably it

Cheers
Brett

Absolutely spot on Brett, you couldn't of said it any better, this is exactly what I've been on about for the last few years

Yes I agree there is loads of information regarding the chickens/ poultry and to an extent pigeons aswell but hardly any info as regards to the finches,

I personally like to read up on particular subjects and make up me own judgment with many issues and when I find very good valid info I tend to keep this eaither in files within me study or on download PDF files, I think it's always a good measure to have such info on record where one can just simply go back to for general reference,

Basically I have a thirst for knowledge when it comes to finch husbandry as I believe that we can never know enough

I also like to keep things as simple as poss, I'm not exactly a big believer in putting various formulas in to the birds water eaither because my belief is that once you start adding stuff to the birds water on a regular basis they then sort of become dependent on it and rather avoid it from the start,

After reading the last 1-2 posts by Craig I'm now seriously leaning towards the use of the insoluble grit once again, I'll probably slowly start to add a type of fine sand particles,

In one of me last posts to Craig I asked in what type of insoluble grit he prefers to use but am still waiting for his preference

Be lucky,

Speak soon

[starman]

An article on grit by Roy Beckham.

http://www.efinch.com/grit/grit.htm

[Craig52]

Here in Perth we live on a coastal sand plain, not much more than beach sand really. Almost all of the aviaries use this for the floor, no problems with drainage. I could not stop my birds from eating it, even if I wanted to.
However we do not seem to have any problems with impacted grit in the finches, not that I have heard of anyway.

Like you Stuart, I like to contrast conventional wisdom with scientific research. Not to prove conventional wisdom wrong, but to try and better understand what makes it right. Unfortunately there is precious little research done on any birds other than chickens and certainly not much on finches.

I suspect the issue with grit impaction is less to do with the grit and more to do with other management practices. As you said, you have never had the problem, so thumbs up for your management.

If you do find any research, I would love to see it as well

For calcium , my birds seem to prefer egg shell. They also have access to cuttlefish bone, I try to avoid putting stuff in the water.
They are kept in an outdoors aviary, so plenty of access to sunshine and exercise.
My simplistic logic is that if you want to provide the perfect balance for making eggshell, then egg shell is probably it

Cheers
Brett

Absolutely spot on Brett, you couldn't of said it any better, this is exactly what I've been on about for the last few years

Yes I agree there is loads of information regarding the chickens/ poultry and to an extent pigeons aswell but hardly any info as regards to the finches,

I personally like to read up on particular subjects and make up me own judgment with many issues and when I find very good valid info I tend to keep this eaither in files within me study or on download PDF files, I think it's always a good measure to have such info on record where one can just simply go back to for general reference,

Basically I have a thirst for knowledge when it comes to finch husbandry as I believe that we can never know enough

I also like to keep things as simple as poss, I'm not exactly a big believer in putting various formulas in to the birds water eaither because my belief is that once you start adding stuff to the birds water on a regular basis they then sort of become dependent on it and rather avoid it from the start,

After reading the last 1-2 posts by Craig I'm now seriously leaning towards the use of the soluble grit once again, I'll probably slowly start to add a type of fine sand particles,

In one of me last posts to Craig I asked in what type of soluble grit he prefers to use but am still waiting for his preference

Be lucky,

Speak soon

I think you are confusing yourself quoting soluble grit as insoluble grit Stewart In my aviaries the floor substrate is shell grit fines which includes a lot of beach sand. In my previous aviaries it was washed granitic sand or river sand so the finches can go through it for the size they need.
My soluble grit is fine shell grit,cooked egg shells and cuttle fish bone. These shouldn't be called grits, they should be called calcium/mineral supplements as they confuse the issue imo. Craig

[STUART WHITING]

Here in Perth we live on a coastal sand plain, not much more than beach sand really. Almost all of the aviaries use this for the floor, no problems with drainage. I could not stop my birds from eating it, even if I wanted to.
However we do not seem to have any problems with impacted grit in the finches, not that I have heard of anyway.

Like you Stuart, I like to contrast conventional wisdom with scientific research. Not to prove conventional wisdom wrong, but to try and better understand what makes it right. Unfortunately there is precious little research done on any birds other than chickens and certainly not much on finches.

I suspect the issue with grit impaction is less to do with the grit and more to do with other management practices. As you said, you have never had the problem, so thumbs up for your management.

If you do find any research, I would love to see it as well

For calcium , my birds seem to prefer egg shell. They also have access to cuttlefish bone, I try to avoid putting stuff in the water.
They are kept in an outdoors aviary, so plenty of access to sunshine and exercise.
My simplistic logic is that if you want to provide the perfect balance for making eggshell, then egg shell is probably it

Cheers
Brett

Absolutely spot on Brett, you couldn't of said it any better, this is exactly what I've been on about for the last few years

Yes I agree there is loads of information regarding the chickens/ poultry and to an extent pigeons aswell but hardly any info as regards to the finches,

I personally like to read up on particular subjects and make up me own judgment with many issues and when I find very good valid info I tend to keep this eaither in files within me study or on download PDF files, I think it's always a good measure to have such info on record where one can just simply go back to for general reference,

Basically I have a thirst for knowledge when it comes to finch husbandry as I believe that we can never know enough

I also like to keep things as simple as poss, I'm not exactly a big believer in putting various formulas in to the birds water eaither because my belief is that once you start adding stuff to the birds water on a regular basis they then sort of become dependent on it and rather avoid it from the start,

After reading the last 1-2 posts by Craig I'm now seriously leaning towards the use of the soluble grit once again, I'll probably slowly start to add a type of fine sand particles,

In one of me last posts to Craig I asked in what type of soluble grit he prefers to use but am still waiting for his preference

Be lucky,

Speak soon

I think you are confusing yourself quoting soluble grit as insoluble grit Stewart In my aviaries the floor substrate is shell grit fines which includes a lot of beach sand. In my previous aviaries it was washed granitic sand or river sand so the finches can go through it for the size they need.
My soluble grit is fine shell grit,cooked egg shells and cuttle fish bone. These shouldn't be called grits, they should be called calcium/mineral supplements as they confuse the issue imo. Craig

Yes sorry Craig that's what I ment the insoluble grits IE the hard mineral grits

at the moment I'm using the soluble IE, oyster shell and grated cuttlefish,

Many of us lads over here in England tend to use just the oyster shell and cuttle with a touch of charcoal,
Hardly any of us use insoluble grit nowadays,

If the birds ever did need grit to aid digestion I should think that the oyster shell should be sufficient but don't think they'd really need it for digestion, we use it more so as a nutritional supplement

Thanks for sharing

[STUART WHITING]

An article on grit by Roy Beckham.

http://www.efinch.com/grit/grit.htm

Arh yes I've been on Roy's site many times but have missed this article,

Roy's basically just described what I've been trying to explain to many for the last few years

Basically the digestive tract has different sections within as the bird digests its food, the Keratin plates should effectively be enough to grind up seeds of various types without the aid of grit,

Roy goes on to state that grit only ever then becomes a problem in the gizzard of a bird that has some underlying gizzard disease or maldigestion syndrome,

I suppose then that a lot of it would all boil down to how we all keep our birds and what supplements we use.

The are the words of well known Roy Beckham : ( so grit really acts as a nutritional supplement and not as a digestive aid and should simply be viewed as a nutritional supplement )

This is now where it all gets confusing and is why it's taken me a few years to try and get to the bottom of this grit debate,

Got known people like Roy stating that insoluble grit is not really needed but yet on the other foot some very good Aussie bird men like Craig and Tiaris, along with a few others recommend in using the insoluble grit

So in affect I'm still scribbling away at the drawing board

Gonna need some proper hard evidence on this one lads, it's gonna take me some convincing to use insoluble grit again and if I do use it I think I'll only use fine sand, certainly wouldn't use any bigger like what I've seen sold as budgie grit, the so called insoluble budgie grit that we've got here in England is like the size of the granules out of a salt grinder shaker
No good atall as I could see this causing problems for small finches like waxbills etc