Aussie Finch Forum

Hi everyone. We live in QLD. Three of our birds, one cockatiel and two zebra finches, have died in one week and we would really appreciate any help and advice.

The first deceased bird was our female cockatiel, Meatball. She died one week ago with no symptom and a necropsy report from an avian vet did not find the cause of death. The other 4 cockatiels and 4 budgies that lived in the same cage with Meatball all look healthy and normal. So I don't think Meatball's death was related to the deaths of the two zebra finches, but I have attached her necropsy report and cage setup photo for reference.

The second was an adult male zebra finch, not sure of age as we bought him from a pet shop a few months ago, but probably one year old. He lived indoors with his brother in the same cage, which is roughly 50cm x 30cm x H70cm (see attached photo). The cage was placed next to the window so they could get sunlight. We gave them finch seed mix (see attached photo) and tap water with added calcium, vitamins and iodine. He actually showed symptoms over two weeks ago. He was balding on the top of his head and his feathers always looked puffed. We looked up on the internet and found that there could be different causes. We saw the other finch (his brother) pluck feathers from him, so we thought that might be the cause or maybe he was just moulting. We placed him in another cage and put wormer (Vetafarm's Wormout Gel) in his water. After a few days, new feathers started to come in and it looked like he was recovering. However, another week later, we found him sitting unmoving on the cage floor and knew that was a very bad sign. We took him out, wrapped him in a towel and put a hot water bag underneath. We fed some parrot rearing formula to him, but his mouth and eyes were shut and after a few minutes he died. I checked his body and found another bald spot on the side of his body covered by his wing. There was no scaly skin and we didn't identify any mite, lice or worm. The other finch looked all healthy and energetic. The most probable cause of death we could think of was distress. The other finch had plucked the feathers of the deceased, and the cockatiels and budgies, in a different cage but the same room, were sometimes noisy and would land on the finch cages when flying around, which probably frightened the finches.

We decided to buy a few more finches as companions for the one we had left and build an outdoor aviary for them in hopes that it would allow them to sleep better. So we got 2 more three-month old male zebra finches and 2 male cordon bleus. While we waited for the aviary order to be delivered, we put the 2 young zebra finches in the same cage with the adult, and cordon bleus in another one. The cages, perches and bowls were thoroughly cleaned with soapy water before putting them in. It didn't take long for the cordon bleus to get used to their new home and start chirping and hopping, but the young zebra finches just huddled together in a food bowl and did nothing other than eating and sleeping. The adult finch occasionally chased them out of the bowl when he wanted to eat (there are actually two food bowls though), but most of the time they were ok. The young ones didn't look very active at their original breeder's place, but we thought maybe they were just still young and more timid than adults. Anyway, we moved the cages outdoors and although they did seem to cheer up a bit under the sun, they still spent most of their time huddled in a food bowl. It rained a little during the day but they didn't get wet. At night, we took them back inside and covered the cages with a bath towel to help them sleep. The next day, which is yesterday, we bought new nests for them, put sawdust in and all three zebra finches hopped inside. We added Vetafarm's Spark Liquid (sustained release energy and electrolyte) to their water to help relieve their possible stress, and sprayed them and the cage with Vetafarm's Avian Insect Liquidator (mite and lice spray). A wild magpie landed their cage and frightened them, so we decided to still keep them indoors until the aviary is built. The young ones were still not very active throughout the day, but we expected the energy liquid to slowly show effect. Meanwhile, the adult looked all good. We put some white paper on the bottom of the cage to see if we can find any trace of mite or lice overnight. Sadly, this morning after we woke up, we found one of the young ones had died. There were wet droppings (see attached photo) but no sign of mite or lice. The poor little guy had a prominent chest, so I guess he either had diarrhoea or was too stressed to eat enough food.

Fortunately, the other young one is now much more energetic and doesn't sit in the food bowl any more. The other finches look fine too. However, we are still worried because we are not sure what killed the birds and whether the other ones are at risk. We are not confident with sending the finches to the vet, as some people have advised that it would worsen their stress and kill them. Also, since the vet didn't find the cause of death of our cockatiel, they probably wouldn't be able to find anything with the other birds, too. I am therefore posting in this forum and would highly appreciate if anyone could give us any advice. Should we keep the 2 zebra finches and 2 cordon bleus indoors or outdoors? Should we put them and the cockatiels and budgies in different rooms? If an outdoor aviary is better, what fittings do we need to help the young one survive? Are we providing them the correct diet?

Please forgive me if I have violated any forum rules. Thank you to everyone who has clicked in this thread.

Why did the attached photos disappear?

Firstly, WELCOME to the AFF, skylet1013.
You certainly seem to have your birds' welfare at heart.
After reading your post, I would not feel confident in isolating any particular significant problems from your description of events prior to the birds' deaths.
However, because a finch is such a small bird it is often assumed that they will exist happily in small enclosures, but because they are such active little birds they will quickly become stressed in confinement. I noticed that you are getting an aviary delivered, so provided that you keep the number of inhabitants in ratio to the aviary's size, that should help to alleviate stress. Do some research on what birds can co-exist peacefully before adding more species, as poor choices add to the overall stress levels of the flock. An outdoor aviary will also help to keep the Vitamin D levels up (from direct sunlight) and provide scope for necessary exercise. There is a wealth of information here on finch health and diet. Consider providing sprouted seed and seeding grass heads as well as the many suggested foods and supplements.
As many an old bird keeper will tell us...as long as we keep live birds we will occasionally have dead birds....an unavoidable truth.
Zebra finches are generally considered hardy and so if you follow the advice offered on the forum by the many experienced breeders you should be able to maintain a vigorous, healthy flock.

If you ever lose a bird, never buy new birds to go in with its friends unless you know exactly why it died. By purchasing new birds you could have brought in diseases, or brought in healthy birds and put them in a cage with a sick bird.

If a bird is fluffed up, it is unwell. Warmth and humidity are first aid. Keep the bird out of drafts and keep plenty of shallow water containers in with the bird to increase humidity. Cover back, roof and sides with a towel leaving the front open. Then find a bird vert in your area and use them. Most bird shops can recommend a bird vet, or check out forums or magazines like Australian Birdkeeper Magazine for vets in your area. A good bird vet is worth knowing. I have taken birds to vets that claim to know about birds and the birds always die. Then you get a huge bill and no idea why it died.

If you plan on keeping a number of birds, then you could invest in a bird hospital cage. These have heaters and thermometers built in and can be very helpful. If you don't want to get a hospital cage then buy a small bird cage about 18inches square and use that as a hospital cage if you get sick birds. And use it as a quarantine cage when you get new birds.

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The pathology for the weero showed some bruising on the back. The bird might have slipped or fallen off a perch and got caught up on something in the cage and was damaged. If birds panic at night time they can fly into the wire and crack their skulls. you wake up in the morning to find either a dead bird or a bird that is really unhappy and sitting fluffed up. Then a few hours later the bird dies. A cracked skull won't always show up on x-rays but will normally show bruising on the top of the head. Your bird had bruising on its back so something injured it.

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Lice, mites, etc, are of low concern because whilst they make a birds miserable, they don't normally kill them.

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What colour are the baby zebra finches beaks? Did they have any black on the beak when you got them? If they had black on the beak they are too young and should not have been taken from the parents. Baby/ young finches should not be removed from their parents until at least 1 month (preferably 2 -3 months) after all the black has gone from their beaks.

Zebra finches use grass to line their nests. You can use most grasses from the garden as long as they are free of chemicals, pesticides, animal waste, etc. And they should sleep in a nest at night. If the Zebra finches are not sleeping in a nest at night, there is a problem with the nest or the birds are unable to get into the nest.

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If the birds are next to a window, it can get very cold at night. Glass is useless at holding heat and if it's cold outside, there will be cold air radiating off the glass. In summer the sun shining through a glass window can actually cook a caged bird. They need some sunlight each day but not mid day sun and not all day sun.

You should move the bird cages away from the windows and keep them out of any drafty areas. Keep their cages at least 12 inches away from external walls too. Unless the walls are insulated, brick is pretty useless at holding heat and cold outside will transfer through the brick inside.

Do not keep birds near an air conditioner outlet or near a heater.

Birds should also be kept out of kitchens so foods don't create fumes and kill them. Onions, garlic, spices and some herbs can kill birds when the foods are cut or cooked. Bug sprays, perfumes, deodorants, etc will also kill birds. Automatic bug sprayers that you plug into a power point on the wall and they regularly let out some spray are lethal as are the same style of things that release a perfume.

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You should replace the seed each day or at least winnow it (blow the husk out of the seed), and clean food and water bowls regularly. Food bowl at least once a week and if it gets poop on it then clean it. Water bowls should be washed & wiped out daily to remove any biofilm that builds up in the container.

I used boiled water that has been left to stand for 24 hours then put through a Brita water filter for myself, my dogs and the birds to drink. Alternatively use bottled water from Woolworths or Coles. Their own brands are quite reasonable and taste a lot better than tap water. There is so much "stuff" in tap water, birds can easily be poisoned by the chemicals added to allegedly make it safe to drink. High levels of chlorine or any other chemicals can kill birds and cause liver problems. In really hot weather, water supply companies increase the chlorine levels to compensate for the heat and possibility of microbes flourishing in the warm water. They do the same thing when they work on the pipes.

They should have a good quality seed mix. The zebras and cordons can have 2 parts finch mix and 1 part blue ribbon canary mix. You can add 1 part budgie seed and 1 part small parrot seed to this mix and give to the budgies and weeros. Alternatively, because the parents of one of your birds had fatty liver disease you can leave out the small parrot mix and just use finch, blue ribbon canary mix and budgie mix. The blue ribbon has a few black seeds in it that are oil seeds but it isn't a lot. If you find the budgies and weeros don't eat the finch mix then just use 2 parts budgie mix and 1 part blue ribbon canary mix.

Birds should have access to cuttlebone, mineral grit and an iodine block at all times. Get a bird vitamin (in powder form) and keep it cool. Check the expiry date on it before you buy it. Add bird vitamins to their water every day. In hot weather give them vitamins in the morning and tip it out at lunch time and replace with fresh water only.

Birds should have green feed every day. You can try them on fruits and vegetables. Make sure you wash any fruit or vegtables well to remove anything from them. If possible grow your own so you know it is free of herbicide/ pesticide.
*NB* Do not feed onion, or any onion relative (spring onions, shallots, leeks, garlic) and no potatoe.

You can give them green grass and you can grow green grass seed for them. See the following link.
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=21732

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How often do the birds get out of the cage to fly around? If they don't get regular exercise they will be more prone to illness. As mentioned by Starman, finches need room too even tho they are small An aviary, which you are getting will definitely help by providing them with room to move.

Pretty sure there is more I can say but this is probably enough for the time being

What colour are the baby zebra finches beaks? Did they have any black on the beak when you got them? If they had black on the beak they are too young and should not have been taken from the parents. Baby/ young finches should not be removed from their parents until at least 1 month (preferably 2 -3 months) after all the black has gone from their beaks.
I was wondering this too.
The Weerio cage looks cluttered, as does the blue based finch cage. Halve the amount of things to sit on so the birds can move arround more freely. Your weerio could very easily have banged it'self just trying to move in there. Not meaning to be harsh just helpful.
Birds need grit and I do not see any. Cuttlefish bone, charcol, clean river sand are all suitable.
If your finches are not used to parrotts having a big bird like that, no matter how gentle it's nature, fly over or close to them could cause panic. And stressed birds will featherpluck. Though if you compare the underwing of your healthy Zeb with that of the deceased one you will probably find the same naturally occuring bare patch.
Welcome and all the best.
LML

Big thanks to @starman, @Rod_L and @finchbreeder !!!

All our birds look energetic now and I hope we are doing the correct things to help the new ones settle in. I think, according to our research, the zebra finches and cordons will get along well in the same aviary.

We did read from various sources that the finches should be kept out of drafts, but some also suggest that they should be kept in an outdoor aviary with nests but without heater even during winter. I am a bit confused by these seemingly contradicting advices. Which is better - indoor with good diet and supplements (and maybe UV light) or outdoor with nests?

The deceased weero had small bruising on her back, but the vet said it could be because she had been lying on her back for long hours. The only thing the vet didn't check was her brain. Since they didn't identify any other possible causes, we figured they probably wouldn't find anything wrong with our other birds even if we sent them for health checks.

The beaks of the baby zebra finches are red/orange, same as the adult, and we were told they are 3 months old. Instead of grass, we put sawdust purchased from the pet shop in their nest and they don't seem to dislike it. Is it ok or should we get some grass?

We will replace tap water with Coles or Woolies spring water and add blue ribbon canary mix to their diet. We will halve the amount of perches and toys in their cages. We didn't add cuttlebone or grit because there is already calcium, multi-vitamins and iodine in their water. Is that not enough? There is a charcoal bell in the weero & budgies cage, but they only bite it very occasionally (they like to bite wooden stuff more).

Thank you all so much again!!

One major concern you talked about is putting saw dust in their nest box,it could be the cause of all your concerns. You really don't know the source of it and it could be a mixture of some treated timber or other chemical components in the the dust.
Definitely use grass for finches and probably peat moss for parrots. Add also some feathers ( buy a cheap feather pillow but not a feather down pillow) to the finch cage so they can line their nest, this is what keeps them warm at night without heating.
Feed plenty of seeding grass heads, they will also use what is left over for nesting material. Good luck Craig

cordons and zebras will be ok together but zebras can sometimes try to take over the cordon's nest. However, they don't normally do that if they have their own eggs/ young to look after.

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All birds need to be kept out of drafts.

In a cage that is indoors it is easy to keep them out of drafts. When they are outdoors in an aviary, you need to make sure the back and 2 sides of the aviary are covered to prevent cold drafts blowing on the birds. Try to have the aviary so it faces north so it gets more sun in winter. And depending on what the wind is like where you live, make sure the back and sides block the worst of the wind. If you get cold southerly wind you want the back of the aviary facing south to stop the wind. If you get cold wind coming from the west then make sure the west side is covered.

When you get an aviary get a silicon gun and silicon up any gaps in the corners to stop wind blowing through them. If you have big gaps under corrugations on the roof, use polystyrene foam sheets and cut them (with a sharp fine bladed knife) to fit the gaps, then glue them or push them into the bigger gaps.

New aviary wire has zinc on it from the galvanising process. It is a good idea to wash the wire before adding birds. If the birds chew on the wire they can get zinc poisoning and die. I can't remember what I used (was a long time ago) but I think vinegar was one thing you can use. Do a google search or start another thread on the forum asking what people use to clean wire and make it safe for the birds.

If the aviary wire has been outdoors exposed to the sun and rain for 6 months or longer you don't need to wash it to remove the residual zinc.

Birds can take cold weather as long as they acclimatise to it slowly (over a few months), and as long as they are not wet and not in a draft. Cold, wet and drafts will kill any bird and most animals very quickly. When they get wet they lose body heat quickly, and if you add cold wind blowing over a cold wet body, the birds/ animals can die from hypothermia within minutes.

Personally I like an outdoor aviary with 3 sides covered and an extension (flight) that is open and allows the birds to sit in the sun or rain. However, in cold wet weather I cover the flight section with clear or tinted polycarbonate/ laser lite or fibreglass sheeting and this allows light in but keeps the water out. This helps stop the birds getting wet at night and getting sick.

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Whether birds are kept indoors or outdoors, they all need a good diet with supplements and some sunlight (for vitamin D). Birds that sleep in nests (zebra finches) should also have nests available all year round so they have somewhere to sleep. Birds that sleep in nests will tolerate cold wet windy weather better than birds that sleep out in the open on perches. The nests provide some shelter from the weather.

I would tip the sawdust out onto the garden and stuff a handful of grass in the nest. Push the grass down lightly so it fills about half the nest, or just below the bottom of the opening of the nest. Then add more grass to the cage so the birds can finish the nest.

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The bruise on the dead weero's back might have been from blood pooling/ settling there if the bird died and was on its back. The blood collects at the lowest point of the body. If you are standing up and die and don't fall down, the blood collects in your feet and legs and turns purple. If you are on your belly when you die it pools around your chest and gut. Sorry getting a bit morbid.

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Have cuttle bone, an iodine/ mineral block, and mineral grit separately for the birds. They need to eat the grit to grind up the seeds in their gizzard. Most birds like to pick at cuttle bone and mineral blocks when they need it. So try to have it available all the time and keep it dry and clean. They don't use much but they do need it.

Vitamin/ mineral supplements will usually have different things in addition to iodine and calcium. A pure vitamin supplement will only have vitamins. A vitamin/ mineral supplement will have vitamins and minerals. Get a powder form and keep it cool and dry. Heat destroys vitamins and so does moisture.

Charcoal can be used with all your birds. Again they don't use much and I usually just burn a branch and put it in the aviary for them to pick at whenever they want. Just use a gum branch and burn the outside of it so it is charcoal but not falling apart. Let it cool and then put in cage for birds

skylet1013 wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 17:35 We did read from various sources that the finches should be kept out of drafts, but some also suggest that they should be kept in an outdoor aviary with nests but without heater even during winter. I am a bit confused by these seemingly contradicting advices. Which is better - indoor with good diet and supplements (and maybe UV light) or outdoor with nests?

Finches are kept in far cooler climates than ours in outdoor aviaries. Zebra finches are largely desert dwellers and desert nights can fall to just a few degrees throughout the year. It is not just low temperatures that affect the birds, but as Rod has already mentioned, prevailing winds and driving rain can combine to drain the warmth from tiny birds very quickly. I was told by a very experienced aviculturist that SUDDEN temperature changes can be catastrophic to finches, whereas the same temperature change over a longer period can be easily tolerated. For the birds' wellbeing, a constant temperature of less than 12 degrees celsius should be avoided.....Tasmania and the high country would be prime locations for these conditions....there, blinds or sheeting can be installed on the open side of the aviary for use in cold snaps.
Species that use roosting nests are less at risk in cold very conditions.
On cold winter days my Silverbills rarely leave their roosting box, and then if they do, as soon as the sun dips they return to it for the night.

Have cuttle bone, an iodine/ mineral block, and mineral grit separately for the birds. They need to eat the grit to grind up the seeds in their gizzard. Most birds like to pick at cuttle bone and mineral blocks when they need it. So try to have it available all the time and keep it dry and clean. They don't use much but they do need it.
What Rob says here is what i was thinking about when I made my suggestion, sorry should have expanded the statement.
When reading about what to do birdwise, always consider the location of the information/informant. You are in Queensland, a very differant climate to Canada for example. And while I am in WA still a bit different, as we both have heat but you tend to have more rain.
Birds naturally live outdoors, so that is my preference for them. But they also naturally can get to the best location within their teritory for warming up or cooling off. In captivity we have to provide these best locations for them. So a well located perch to sit in the sun first thing in the morning and warm up is needed. And a warm protected corner with perching and nests for nightime sleeping is also a must. But dont forget that when it is hot they want a nice shady spot with a light breeze (not a roaring wind) My Zebs live in a warm climate and mostly sleep perched near the roof of their avairy.
Lots to consider I know, and we all keep adapting for several years until it's all just right.
Then we build the next avairy and start all over again.
LML