How do you classify a bird as a mutation?

[Mickp]

How do you classify a bird as a mutation?
is it just done using the birds colouring or does size & shaped come into it somewhere.
with gouldians there are 100's of different colours available now, zebras are much the same, societies have the crested variety and then there are the pied birds.
are these all considered to be mutations or are there different categories of mutation.

[cranberry]

Sorry, this might be a dumb point but isn't a mutation anything that has modified genes? So how does one tell if something is just a colour variation rather than a new mutation?

[Mickp]

no such thing as a dumb point or question. I dont understand genetics at all, other than that you require a male & female to produce young
to most of us (I think) a mutation in a finch is mainly colour related, surely the colour is geneticly related somehow.
I sure hope someone here can explain

[fincher]

this is a lil of topic as above but thought id put it here
ok here is a 1 example of finch i want sorted out was having a discussion with a guy at work on the red fronted painted as in the really heavy red fronted ones is this a mutation or a modification. personally i believe its a modfication as its really a line bred bird of putting the really red cocks to more reder hens and so for untill the desire amount of red is wanted rather than a mutation.

thanks chris

[cranberry]

That I would class as a modification. It's like when you see one guy has a hairier chest than the next. That's not a mutation as they both have hair on their chest. It's just an exaggerated characteristic that one has over another.

[finchbreeder]

A mutation is something that turns up obviously different to the "normal" e.g. pied
A modification is a variation within the "normal" eg brighter colour
Or that's how I see it anyway.
So your very red painted is a modification Chris.
And a very nice one at that.
LML

[gomer]

That I would class as a modification. It's like when you see one guy has a hairier chest than the next. That's not a mutation as they both have hair on their chest. It's just an exaggerated characteristic that one has over another.

thank god for manscaping

[kevins]

Hi All
I think Mick has raised a very interesting point here....
The term mutation has been accepted in bird keeping circles and will stick because it’s a
useful term that describes a bird that is different in some way from the normal as we see
them. Many of the birds that are called mutations may be colour variations of the normal
species....so the term mutation may not apply to them in a technical sense.....I don’t think it
matters for the purposes of bird keeping though...its common usage now and should remain
so.

The dictionary definition of a mutation is

“relatively permanent change in hereditary material involving either a physical change in
chromosome relations or a biochemical change in the codons that make up genes; also : the
process of producing a mutation b : an individual, strain, or trait resulting from mutation”

So the only real way to say if there has been some mutation occurring is to test the DNA of the variety and the species...this is not a difficult process these days but it would cost..in some cases it might be worth doing but I dont really see that its that important to know.....most people would, Im sure, be happy to just enjoy the bird as it is

Mutations occur in wild populations as a result of natural selection....eg....the red fronted
painted......like all individuals in a population no two birds are the same....like
humans....short, tall, hairy, smooth....
If, in the wild, there was a trait that gave a bird an advantage as far as survival goes then that
individual would be more likely to survive and so pass on that trait to the offspring.
One example might be that a particular bird has bigger or better eyes than another....so it
could see a predator more clearly or quickly...that bird then has a better chance of survival
and passing on that trait......over time other factors would come into play and those traits
would become the norm in the population.
Thats the basic stuff of evolution and how new species are formed...without mutations there
would not be any new species. But it requires a change in genetic material that is passed on
through the sex cells to become established.
So in aviaries, without the same degree of pressure from competition or predators ...or even
finding food ,then , if left to their own devices, many birds would eventually breed back to the
original species.....if there was a change in genetic material then those birds would not be
strictly the same as when the process started but would probably still fall within the normal
range of variability. This process would take as long to occur as it did to establish the
mutation in the first place and would be more likely to occur in colour variations than true
mutations.
There are mutations that occur from somatic or normal body cells and this sometimes
happens in captive populations.....but these birds are not able to pass those traits on because
there has not been a change in the genetic material
When you consider the time this takes its possible to understand that surviving mutations in
wild populations are always an advantage, a positive trait for the survival of the
species.....negative mutations are not able to survive and reproduce in wild populations but
are able to survive in captivity.
There are a number of different things that can trigger a mutation.....in aviaries selective
breeding can over time trigger a mutation.
I have a feeling that there is not so much mutations being created as a selection process that
favours a certain trait in a bird that is desirable. Each new colour variation would bring with it
a series of characteristics that might favour this or that colour ...or size....or head shape.....but
the birds are still Zebras...or Gouldians.....they don’t have a different shaped beak.....or
something similar that would mark it then as a mutation. There are many traits that can
influence a birds eventual appearance that have an opportunity to exist in aviaries that may
not survive in a wild population....
Im aware I’ve waffled on for far too long but it is a vast subject and a complex one.
I hope this has been of some use to other forum users...I’ve no doubt there will be further
comments on the topic.
Regards to all

[Mickp]

good response kevin, thank you.
I hope there are a lot more comments, its interesting to find out how people regard the wording that is used commonly when talking about birds.

[jusdeb]

Flunked biology but vaguely remember that a mutation is a variation of a gene or a recessive gene that comes forward every so many generations.
Albino critters can throw normal offspring but the albino gene will always be there and its pot luck as to when it surfaces again.
However if you put albino to albino to albino blah blah blah then the albino gene will be the more dominant one and you will get albinos mostly.
So mutation to me is when Joe Blow finds he has a funky coloured bird in a clutch he will breed that bird to normals till he gets another funky coloured bird then breed these two together to build a stronger gene pool of funky coloured birds then after so many genrerations of them breeding true you have a mutation ....sheesh Im scaring myself thinking this hard.