St. Helena Mutations and what to expect

[finchbreeder]

Sounds like you are a braver lady than me Deb. Have thought about it from time to time. But self teaching and observation of what others do and asking lots of questions. Is teaching me. Some bits I understand very well some are more confusing. Always loved genetics and it was what I wanted to do, back in my youth before I discovered that distance and money mattered back then. Now I am busy making sure the same things don't stop my kids. No. one has his degree and No. 2 is doing the degree I would love to have done. But I didn't tell her that till she had chosen it and started it. Kids shouldn't be made to live our dreams. Off my soapbox now. Thanks again Arthur. If I can get the hen to breed with one cock then the other I can risk breeding half sibs provided that are strong and healthy looking then outcross. Or outcross straight up provided I can get the stock.
LML

[garymc]

I am of the opinion that fawn St Helenas or recessive in inheritance. Breeding results with my birds have also confirmed this.

Orix comments that he breeds a few each year, and all turn out to be males probably confirms this. With a sex linked mutation, the only normal looking birds which can carry the gene are cock birds. These split cock birds when paired with normal hens can only ever throw fawn hens, never fawn cocks. To achieve a "coloured" cock bird, in a sex linked mutation one must have a fawn hen and either a split or coloured cock bird. Orix's results would tend to indicate that the sex of the fawns has just been luck - either good or bad.


In other terms a flock of normal looking birds - carrying a sex-linked gene will only ever have coloured hens appear, Whereas a flock of normal looking birds carrying a recessive gene it is possible to have young of both sexes appear.

As for the yellow St I believe this also to be recessive in inheritance.

So if you pair a fawn non-yellow gene carrying bird of either sex, to a yellow non-fawn carrying bird of the opposite sex then all young will be normal in appearance but carry both the gene for fawn an the gene for yellow.


From here you can,

Pair these double-split young together and (purely statistically) 1 in four will be yellow and 1 in four yellow - 1 in 16 however will be a yellow fawn.

This is without doubt the simplest and possibly the quickest cross to achieve the fawn yellow.

Other crosses will eventually produce fawn yellows but not in the next immediate generation.

[finchbreeder]

They seem to have formed a happy little flock, but no signs of interest in nesting. So patience will have to be mine. If I succeed in breeding them (that should be when) I will report back, with the results.
LML

[arthur]

If Gary is correct and fawns are recessive then my previous "steps" to breed yellow-fawns would be out of order and his "steps" correct

I have kept fawns in the past, in those days called "cinnamons" . . but only bred colour to colour so have no first hand experience as to whether they are AR or SLR

Most websites however refer to the Fawn Saint as being SLR

If the Fawn is in fact AR then the Yellow-Fawn will statistically be less likely to occur as often as it will if it is SLR . . but this is where luck comes into play

It may also be possible that there are TWO types of dilute Saint Helena . . one being AR and the other being SLR

Just as there are two types of dilute Star finches . . the combination of which has resulted in the beautiful "Yellow-bodied" Star

"Yellow" finches where the reds are replaced by yellows are almost invariably AR . . But I fancy that I have read on some overseas web-sites that there is a "Yellow" Diamond Firetail mutation that is SLR

This is a reminder that information gained from the internet may or may not be "gospel"

Any further personal experiences in this area??

[arthur]

If Gary is correct and fawns are recessive then my previous "steps" to breed yellow-fawns would be out of order and his "steps" correct

I have kept fawns in the past, in those days called "cinnamons" . . but only bred colour to colour so have no first hand experience as to whether they are AR or SLR

Most websites however refer to the Fawn Saint as being SLR

If the Fawn is in fact AR then the Yellow-Fawn will statistically be less likely to occur as often as it will if it is SLR . . but this is where luck comes into play

It may also be possible that there are TWO types of dilute Saint Helena . . one being AR and the other being SLR

Just as there are two types of dilute Star finches . . the combination of which has resulted in the beautiful "Yellow-bodied" Star

The mating of SLR fawn with AR fawn would result in some normal looking birds . . so it would appear that Fawn Saints are either one or the other

"Yellow" finches where the reds are replaced by yellows are almost invariably AR . . But I fancy that I have read on some overseas web-sites that there is a "Yellow" Diamond Firetail mutation that is SLR

This is a reminder that information gained from the internet may or may not be "gospel"

Any further personal experiences in this area??

[garymc]

Definately quite possible that there are two types of fawn or cinnamon saints.

Picked up a few yellows just recently and 2 fawns. The guy I got them off commented that he had bred really pale (he called them "platimum like" to confuse things further) yellows but had lost his way with them and decided to move them on.

There was also talk of a sub-species being present over here where the normal birds were very white in the front and a little smaller. They were referred to as lesser saints - perhaps these also got mixed into the yellow/fawn mix hence producing the "platinum like" fawn yellows.

[garymc]

As for the Yellow diamonds, I do recall purchasing them as sex-linked linked but never did any good with them, so can't personally comment. Will say though that the guy I originally got them off had done quite a bit of work with them.

Another example I guess is the fawn and cinnamon diamonds which are floating around at the moment. I think (not certain though) that one is AR and the other ASL. Seems that most mutations of this form are called cinnamon when they are ASL and fawn when AR.

[arthur]

Yes we are a bit slack with our terminology

In parrots cinnamons are sex-linked (usually with red eyes, or born with red eyes which may turn darker) and dilutes are autosomal-recessive

But many parrot people incorrectly refer to dilutes such as the Dilute Rainbow Lorikeet as "cinnamons"

We need a bit more consistency . . perhaps it may sound a little affectatious to refer to a bird as a "sex-linked cinnamon ------- ", but it eventually would take on and give more clarity to the situation

The understanding of genetics is a bit like riding a bike . . . Until you can, you can't; But once you can, you wonder why you never could.

[finchbreeder]

Arthur I like the way you put it. The genetics I understand is 2nd nature. The stuff I don;t whenever I read or get told I say "of course" but unfortunately it does not all stick in the mind. Have done a lot of mutation breeding over the years but with the easy stuff like Zebs. My biggest problem is knowing what mutation I am dealing with when I decide to embark on a new finch.
And I prefer finches that need genetic knowledge or are difficult to sex. Trust me to pick the less straight forward. Family would say wasn't being me if I didn't. I had thought from what I had previously been told that fawn St Helena's were sex linked. But as you guys say there could be 2 types.
LML