Aussie Finch Forum

What's the deal with Avigrain?! I just tried ordering their Finch and Canary seed mix producs and discovered...

- One product highlighted on their web site as "new!" was discontinued 6 months ago!
- The ingredients advertised online for their seed mixes are very different from the ingredients written on the actual bags.
- Worst of all, the ingredients in the bag are different from the ingredients written on the bag(!!), and in turn different from what they advertise online.

False advertising, out of date info... Is this a known problem with the company? I have't bought their products in years but decided to try again. Now I'm not so sure!

Try sending them an email to get some first hand info .
The only place that sells avigrain around here has stopped ordering it , wont say why just that they wont be selling it anymore .

My main concern with their mixes is that they sometimes use imported seed (or at least have done so in the past) which for me is enough to never use it.

Hi,

Dennis, the owner of Avigrain here.

Just thought I would respond to these points.

First up - our web-site needs updating. My apologies for that.

Secondly - we have dropped some products which may have been advertised - usually we give a new product six months trial and if they don;t sell then stop production.

Finally regarding imported seeds - it is a hugely difficult to import seeds - it is extremely costly and risky. We once almost lost 100 tonnes of Argentinian sunflowers which just went 'missing'. We only import seeds when there is absolutely none left in the country in order to maintain supply to breeders, the alternative is to simply close the factory and leave all breeders without feed.

Imported seeds must be sterilised but they still retain nutritional value - remember baby food is sterilised to remove pathogens. So it is not like it is dangerous to birds. So I would like to reject the proposition made by the last emailer. In 25 years we have only been forced to import three times in case of severe drought and would love it if we never have to again.

So please forgive us being slack on our web-site and promotions - marketing isn;t our strong point!

But please don;t have a go at us about importing grain - when it happens we don;t have any choice.

Feel free to ask more questions

and Happy New Year

Hi Dennis

Wow you certainly had good timing on coming out, its great to have you on board any how. I'm sure you 'l get asked a lot of questions.

Hi Dennis

So great to have you here. Importing seed is understandable and, yes, very tricky. It is really very much appreciated to have this declared accurately on packaging though, just as it is for most other human and pet foodstuffs, so consumers can know what they are buying and identify quality products.

Also, irradiation of food is far from neutral or harmless. Yes, it's currently an obligatory process for imported seed so may leave little choice, but it's incredibly important to understand the consequences of this process. Here are a few scientific views...

George L Tritsch, Ph D, Cancer Research Scientist, New York State Department of Health
"...based on thirty-three years of experience ...and as a cancer research scientist and biochemist ... I am opposed to consuming irradiated food because of the abundant and convincing evidence in the refereed scientific literature that the condensation products of the free radicals formed during irradiation produce statistically significant increases in carcinogenesis, mutagenesis and cardiovascular disease in animals and man.

…. A large number of new molecules is formed. Therefore, irradiation is not a process but a means of adding new molecules to food.
… Theory cannot predict the nature or number or quantity of the new compounds….
...peroxidation of lipids [fats, like those in seeds] by irradiation produces known carcinogens. ... [It] also results in their cross-link polymerization in a manner akin to the drying of oil-based paint. These polymers cannot be digested …

Irradiation converts nitrate to nitrite ... Mutagenesis is directly proportional to nitrite concentration ... and forms...nitrosamines...demonstrated to be potent carcinogens...

... the results of feeding five malnourished Indian children wheat irradiated with 75,000 rads. … children showed gross chromosomal polyploidy [cell abnormalities] four weeks after initiation of the feeding program. Chromosome number returned to normal twenty six weeks after the feeding was stopped. This is unequivocal evidence of a potent mutagen in irradiated wheat."

Richard Piccioni, Ph D, Senior Staff Scientist, Accord Research and Educational Associates, New York.
"Treatment of food with ionizing radiation presents issues of food safety qualitatively unlike those posed by any other food processing method or food additive. The large amount of energy contained in ionising radiation provides the potential for exceedingly complex chemical transformation of food components including the production of mutagenic or carcinogenic substances…"

...and an anecdotal one from the Queensland Finch Society:
"If you are fortunate enough to get hold of this local Niger you will notice the difference in the way your birds consume it. When I obtained some I placed 2 bowls in the aviary - 1 with irradiated seed and the other with the 'fresh' product. The birds literally emptied the fresh seed before they were even interested in the irradiated seed."

On a simpler level, radiation is also known to destroy key nutrients like Vitamins E and C.

So irradiating baby food is scientifically indefensible madness, whereas irradiating bird seed is perhaps an occasionally necessary evil. Then again, if the birds reject or can't digest it anyway, perhaps there's little point even in that.

Fingers crossed for good Australian crops and sound governmental support for our agricultural industries!

Hi Dennis, welcome to the forum,

Iv been feeding my gouldian finches Avigrain Budgie blue and Finch Blue for the last 5 years with good success.

Jarryd

Welcome Dennis and good on you for sorting that out .

Now hows about getting someone to sell your seed here in Dubbo NSW ?

Was getting it at Petbarn Orange until they stopped selling it . Would be good to have it again .

Welcome to the forum
Won a bag of your finch mix in a bird sale raffle, and I at least are having no problems, it is certainly better than some previous mixes I have bought.

Have to take issue with the slightly alarmist tone re:irradiated food.

Finchy wrote:irradiation of food is far from neutral or harmless

This would seem to imply that it is harmful. Concrete evidence of actual harm, as opposed to a plausible mechanism for causing harm, is lacking. That is not to say that it is absolutely not harmful, just to say that the effects are sufficiently slight to have been difficult to demonstrate.

Finchy wrote:Here are a few scientific views...

It is worth noting here that these views are in a minority.
One could equally rustle up some minority views on GM crops, or climate change, or low-salt diets, or any other controversial topic in science and by presenting them in series, create the appearance of consensus.
There are numerous reviews which have failed to find evidence of harm, conducted by independents as well as government bodies.

Finchy wrote:George L Tritsch, Ph D

:
(the PhD was awarded in 1954 for biochemistry)

Finchy wrote:abundant and convincing evidence in the refereed scientific literature that the condensation products of the free radicals formed during irradiation produce statistically significant increases in carcinogenesis, mutagenesis and cardiovascular disease in animals and man

A quick search of Medline showed no such evidence. Instead, as is usually the case, there is evidence implicating free radicals in those disease processes, and evidence that irradiation causes production of free radicals. This is different to proving that irradiated food causes cancer. Remember, we used to think that aluminium cooking pans caused Alzheimer's, based on similar tenuous chains of logic. Further, we continue to use our mobile phones despite better evidence than exists for food irradiation that they can cause cancer.

Finchy wrote:A large number of new molecules is formed

Finchy wrote:… Theory cannot predict the nature or number or quantity of the new compounds….

Very alarming stuff, until we consider that the same statements could be equally applied to cooking foods, or smoking/pickling/preserving them. I understand that Woolies ("The Fresh Food People") store apples for up to 15 months in anoxic coolrooms. What does that do to the compounds in the apples?

Finchy wrote:... the results of feeding five malnourished Indian children wheat irradiated with 75,000 rads. … children showed gross chromosomal polyploidy [cell abnormalities] four weeks after initiation of the feeding program. Chromosome number returned to normal twenty six weeks after the feeding was stopped. This is unequivocal evidence of a potent mutagen in irradiated wheat."

Leaving aside the deeply disturbing ethical questions raised by this bizarre report, it raises more questions than it answers. "Gross chromosomal polyploidy" is not an easily reversible condition. It would be helpful to know what cells were polyploid, to what extent, and frankly, the result sounds implausible. If a reference were provided, I would love to check it out. As it stands, it is emotive, unverifiable and implausible.

Finchy wrote:Richard Piccioni, Ph D, Senior Staff Scientist

This fellow seems more circumspect.

Finchy wrote:The large amount of energy contained in ionising radiation provides the potential for exceedingly complex chemical transformation of food components including the production of mutagenic or carcinogenic substances…"

No doubt, but there is a long way between 'the potential for' and 'actual evidence of'.

And finally, the QFS observation on fresh versus imported Niger seed: is it not possible that birds prefer fresh seed? The imported seed was irradiated; perhaps it was treated with other agents as well.

Finchy wrote:So irradiating baby food is scientifically indefensible madness

Au contraire, my dear, it has been vigorously scientifically defended. It has also been vigorously scientifically assaulted. To my reading, the jury is still out.

Finchy wrote:Fingers crossed for good Australian crops and sound governmental support for our agricultural industries!

Hear, hear to that.

No offense Finchy, and this is not directed at you or anyone else.
I just think that we are very bad at assessing risk, and worry about things like cancer risk from passive smoking while we lead toxic lifestyles and drive cars to work very fast every day.
It is worth remembering that we are talking about birdseed here.

*falls gracelessly from soapbox*