FOR THE GOOD OF THE GOULDIAN

[TomDeGraaff]

I'd love to see wild Gouldians and maybe I will be able to one day. Nonetheless, if we are serious custodians of our birds, there should be room for the dinky dye real original bird. Look at the trend back to wild type budgerigars.

It is a fact of life and a human character trait that when we choose birds from a "flock" in an aviary, we either consciously or subconsciously choose the biggest, brightest and this has a long term impact on the birds. This can't really be helped. People such as you (and the vast majority!!) will always choose large.

Also on the topic of size, there's another thread on this forum about domestication of animals go where selecting for one trait (tameness) has automatically lead to other traits becoming more common in the fox. This may be happening with our birds. Maybe while selecting for more sturdy stock, size has also tagged along and become more prevalent.

That doesn't mean that some of us can't be mindful and supportive of keeping the wildtype going.

Getting back to the idea of a standard. The admission that birds being larger in captivity than in the wild both supports the view we are changing our birds and gives us food for thought about how we wish to treat other species. Do they all end up like English show budgies in 50 years time?
If a standard is to be used as a competitive scale for breeders to strive to attain, then to me that is bad. If a standard is to be used as a benchmark to maintain quality, then that is good.

[SamDavis]

Hi all. I've just returned from holidays and thought this thread looks like one where I can cause some instant strife!
It makes sense for Australia to have a specialist Gouldian breeders club, but I see no reason for such a club to focus on showing and standards. I'm not really sure how I feel about a Gouldian standard. If showing is the aim then it has potential to emphasise visual features at the expense of vigour and breeding ability as we see in most other show animals. However there are common features most of us agree should be present in birds we retain for breeding (including breeding ability itself). It is a fact that we all select for traits we find desirable and in my experience I think most experienced breeders pretty much agree on which birds are crap and which are keepers. How we go about putting this into a standard document is of course another matter. If the standard is to be used to assist new finchos (rather than as a show standard) then maybe a series of annotated photos of both good and bad would be a useful start.

[Tiaris]

There is absolutely no reason why a standard (probably the wrong word for it in hindsight) could not be exactly the wild-type features of the Gouldian. The notion of a standard (or list of positive features) is not necessarily to show the bird or distort its best natural features or proportions in any way. I have never showed a bird in my life and don't plan to do so in the near future, but can see that some kind of guide as to ideal features of one of our most commonly kept & bred species to be of particular use for newcomers to the hobby. I am not after any guidance myself, nor do I expect most experienced Gouldian breeders to be. This is merely a suggestion to assist new & aspiring Gouldian breeders to know what to look for & what to select for if they don't already have a firm idea of exactly what makes a good bird. I think the suggestion for photos of good traits & bad is excellent. I'll try for some myself.

[finchbreeder]

As one who prefers small birds. That is one of the reasons I prefer finches. But also I like the smaller breeds of canaries, like the Gloster and Fife. Both of which are bigger than they were 20 yrs ago. But I have seen big healthy robust birds and small weedy sickly looking birds too. So maybe, just maybe. Some of the upsizing of our domesticated species is due to the constant availability of quality food. Which would mean that upsizing is an offshoot of domestication.
LML

[Danny]

I've upsized dramatically since my wife started domesticating me so you may be onto something there FB

[Craig52]

I've upsized dramatically since my wife started domesticating me so you may be onto something there FB

You crack me up Danny

[berniep]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to cause a caffufle. These days i only breed gouldians but having spent many years showing budgies and racing pigeons. my purpose of joining the Aussie finch forum was to seek out as many breeders as possible in the hope of developing some form of central point to gain knowledge and improve the domestic way in which we breed Gouldian Finches. Examples of where I am coming from are numerous, starting with the avicultural society. Please don't get me wrong it is a great club with good people and a lot of history, however I have been to 3 meetings and came out feeling like i must be a parrot ( nothing wrong with parrots or there dedicated breeders ) however I did not gain any confidence nor did I meet any gouldian breeders !!! Next I thought I would do the show rounds, first of all, if you breed gouldians, how can you have a show in the middle of winter ????? Such was the Melbourne show. Again i left feeling like a parrot. Not many gouldian breeders attended these shows, so I heard about the forum and posted this topic, MY opinion thats all, so loosen up guys, what could be bad about a club that deals with everything GOULDIAN with many members, doing silly things like bulk buying seed, nesting material, vitamins, aviary products, heaven forbid us having an annual show at the appropriate time JUST for gouldian finches. Maybe international and local guest speakers talking and answering questions about...... You guessed it...... The Gouldian Finch!!!! For the record Ferraris are quality cars, very successful with a very good reputation, you can't buy them cheap. 300 years ago homo sapiens ( us ) had an average height of 5ft 4ins, my son is 6ft 4in, must have fed him on greens and grains !!! Last but not least I have been very successful with blues and silvers, should I sell them for $20 and $30 respectively. Regards to all, Berniep

[TomDeGraaff]

Hey Berniep!

I'd still join a Gouldian Society! I probably wouldn't show birds but I'd enjoy those other things you mention.

I'm old! Many years (decades?) ago, a lovebird society was set up in Victoria. I joined hoping that this would progress the development of the five species being bred at the time in Victoria (peach-faced, Fischer's, masked, Nyasa and Madagasan).

Very quickly, the show people took over. There was money in the mutations and "transmutations " (hybrid breeding to swap colourd amongst the 3 eye-ring species) took off. So much for pure maskeds, Nyasas and Fischers! Competition, showing-mania and dollars soon ruined a great concept. Eventually, the bottom fell out of the lovebird market, widening the club's focus to include other foreign parrots didn't help. It folded. The damage to the lovebirds was done. Current lovebird societies struggle to find pure birds and for sales constantly list transmutations.

I know this sounds very negative but there are lessons to be learnt here. Whilst the Gouldian will probably be safe from "transmutations", it will not be safe from the politics, show-driven standards influenced by show-obsessive people, and those simply interested in the money.

We are keeping and breeding birds in a continuum. We can learn from the past but we should also consider that what we start will be taken on by others in the future who might not have the same aims or ideals as us. I'm all for a Gouldian society but it requires a commitment from such a group to keep new people educated and enlightened and kirb overzealous show stuff.

FYI, the Avicultural Society of Australia (and its branches) was formed by people disenchanted with the politics and bickering stemming from shows. It was formed to service people who simply wanted to enjoy the breeding of birds. To this day, it spurns any competitive showing and does not include the budgerigar and canary in its coverage.

[Craig52]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to cause a caffufle. Last but not least I have been very successful with blues and silvers, should I sell them for $20 and $30 respectively. Regards to all, Berniep

Bernie Hi,I wasn't going to chip in anymore but here goes,their are a lot of quality mutation gouldian breeders on this forum,if you go to Australian Finches,click on gouldian you will find just about all the information on gouldians and there welfare as well as the buying of bulk green seed,greens and grains and medications etc etc.The guys that do this are from Melbourne and they do an excellent job volunteering their services.
They can be contacted privately through pm's or through a post with a question.
As far as pricing goes,there are recommended prices that most clubs put out and the QFS doe's put out recommended prices for mutation finches.
There are alot good quality mutation gouldians about now and that sets the price,it's all supply and demand but if you think your birds are of superior quality you can ask what you want for them and if you find you can't move them start dropping your prices to suit or keep them and sit on them till you find the right buyer but that can cause concern too,where to house them,doubling your seed bill,losing some to stress/disease and you would be thinking, i should have sold them at an average price at the time.Anyhow,money shouldn't come into breeding birds but it's nice to cover your expenses and to have a bit more to purchase that fine specimen to add to your collection.
FYI,i too am a member of ASA and even though i like all birds,my passion is finches and i too found it a little bit one sided when comes to finches so i also joined the QFS back in the 80's so i can get a fix for my finches more often and have made life long friends with many finch minded breeders. Cheers Craig
I'm shutting up now

[berniep]

Appreciate your comments, constructive discussion will always increase knowledge on any subject as long as we do it in a friendly and non personal way, we may be getting somewhere, thanks again.