Genetics with Painteds

[vettepilot_6]

Is it possible to breed out the yellow and end up with pure red fronted chicks being fledged all the time.
I might breed a few birds but genetics not even novice class(by choice).

Oh don't go there David...I put this up in a previous post and was accused of mutation bashing lol...where all I wanted to know was can it be reversed...highly unlikely as recessive too hard (from what I gather I was told (thanks Uraeginthus and a couple of others) and wouldn't be able to prove it in my lifetime...

[Tiaris]

It certainly is possible, but you can never be 100% certain that you have culled all split yellows.

[E Orix]

OK if it is possible how do you do it.
To say that I am not pleased to be getting yellow chicks from what I thought were pure birds is not sitting well.
I accept the odd yellow turning up from random purchases, I guess that has to now be accepted
If I want to buy Red birds that won't throw yellows who can you trust these days that they are pure.

[SamDavis]

I don't know if "who can you trust" is fair. In many cases the breeder doesn't (and can't) know for sure. With recessive splits the trait can be passed on for years and years and never show itself. No doubt many of these traits probably exist as splits in the wild population too - makes me wonder - is having the odd unknown split really an issue?

[vettepilot_6]

I don't know if "who can you trust" is fair. In many cases the breeder doesn't (and can't) know for sure. With recessive splits the trait can be passed on for years and years and never show itself. No doubt many of these traits probably exist as splits in the wild population too - makes me wonder - is having the odd unknown split really an issue?

Hi Sam... it may not be a problem for those that breed mutations..but fo me..(I like mutations) just dont want to breed any...any if you are trying to breed the best normal possible and something comes up not expected, well it just leaves you a bit p@$#$ed...and most likely have to start over...

[Tiaris]

The only way to work toward achieving successful culling of split yellow mutant genes is to pair all your normal-looking Painteds as single pairs & any pairs which produce Yellows can then be sold off as definite splits & any of yellows' red siblings as "possible splits" (2/3 chance of being split). Continue the process for as many generations as is required to no longer produce yellows. This will over time progressively reduce the proportion of yellow progeny being produced but due to the invisible nature of the split yellow (recessive) gene, you can never be totally sure that the recessive yellow gene has been totally culled. A split yellow (which looks normal) paired to a normal will continue producing more splits (roughly half of their progeny) & these will continue to produce more splits undetected for subsequent generations until 2 splits are by chance paired together. Only then will more yellow young appear, thus identifying the parent birds as known splits.
I totally agree with Sam that their is absolutely no ill-intent or poor reflection on character or trustworthiness by someone inadvertently selling split birds as normals as in many instances there is no possible way that the seller could have known that normal phenotype birds carry split recessive genes & in many other instances the genetics at play is misunderstood by buyer, seller or both. I firmly believe that the majority of cases where split birds are sold as normals is not intentional deception.

[arthur]

"In God We Trust" . . . The American national declaration, to which some wag added:"All others, cash!"

I guess that the only 'guaranteed' non splits would be birds taken from the wild

But .. hold on .. where did those two splits that produced the first aviary bred yellow come from . .

And haven't 'yellows' been reported in the wild in Bloods, Diamonds, Redbrows, and . . drumroll . .



Gouldians


Hope there are no reports of Yellow Painteds out there


Sometimes I think that we aviculturists take ourselves a little too seriously

[iaos]

The only way to work toward achieving successful culling of split yellow mutant genes is to pair all your normal-looking Painteds as single pairs & any pairs which produce Yellows can then be sold off as definite splits & any of yellows' red siblings as "possible splits" (2/3 chance of being split). Continue the process for as many generations as is required to no longer produce yellows. This will over time progressively reduce the proportion of yellow progeny being produced but due to the invisible nature of the split yellow (recessive) gene, you can never be totally sure that the recessive yellow gene has been totally culled. A split yellow (which looks normal) paired to a normal will continue producing more splits (roughly half of their progeny) & these will continue to produce more splits undetected for subsequent generations until 2 splits are by chance paired together. Only then will more yellow young appear, thus identifying the parent birds as known splits.
I totally agree with Sam that their is absolutely no ill-intent or poor reflection on character or trustworthiness by someone inadvertently selling split birds as normals as in many instances there is no possible way that the seller could have known that normal phenotype birds carry split recessive genes & in many other instances the genetics at play is misunderstood by buyer, seller or both. I firmly believe that the majority of cases where split birds are sold as normals is not intentional deception.

Tiaris, I think that is the hard way of going about it. Admittedly this is only theoretical as I have never had the space to try it, but here it goes.

If you have a decent sized set up say 12 flights. I would pair a yellow bird with a red bird in each flight. All offspring are at least spilt yellow and can be sold that way. After a season where no yellow chicks (you would probably need to breed at least 6 - 8 birds to be sure) are produced in the flight you would call the red parent bird "probable pure". I would then pair up the probable reds and breed them til their done. With some of their offspring you could also test breed these back to yellow to be sure no spilt birds have slipped through.

Doing it this way you have much more confidence of no mutation birds being in your flock and if there are you can identity them much more quickly. It doesn't however guarantee that your line isn't spilt for fawn or another mutation

Multiple mutations in a species makes it much more difficult, such as gouldians.
Do you agree that this might work?

Cheers Ian

[arthur]

Top way of testing

When I was trying to help my kids with their homework, many years ago, there was a part of their probability course called 'Hypothesis Testing' which, if I remember correctly worked somewhat along those lines . . and using a set of tables, you would be able to come up with a percentage chance that the birds were pure by using the number of trials undertaken

Perhaps Sam D could add to this

[BrettB]

Tiaris, I think that is the hard way of going about it. Admittedly this is only theoretical as I have never had the space to try it, but here it goes.

If you have a decent sized set up say 12 flights. I would pair a yellow bird with a red bird in each flight. All offspring are at least spilt yellow and can be sold that way. After a season where no yellow chicks (you would probably need to breed at least 6 - 8 birds to be sure) are produced in the flight you would call the red parent bird "probable pure". I would then pair up the probable reds and breed them til their done. With some of their offspring you could also test breed these back to yellow to be sure no spilt birds have slipped through.

Doing it this way you have much more confidence of no mutation birds being in your flock and if there are you can identity them much more quickly. It doesn't however guarantee that your line isn't spilt for fawn or another mutation

Multiple mutations in a species makes it much more difficult, such as gouldians.
Do you agree that this might work?

Cheers Ian

Ian's strategy is certainly valid, but I have two problems with it.

The major concern is that you are generating a whole lot of split birds is the process, which seems contrary to the aim of increasing "pure" stock. This may not be an issue for the individual, but I think it is an issue for the hobby as a whole.
Second point is that despite your efforts you are still not guaranteed of getting "pure" birds. In the examples given, if you accept 6 red offspring as "proof" there is still a 1/32 chance of the bird being split. 8 red offspring, 1/128 chance of still being split. No number of normal offspring can provide a 100% guarantee. It is just not possible to totally eradicate recessive traits.

My own view is that I try to not get too fixated on a single trait, like breast color. Each bird has its own unique characteristics, and if you can breed a strain that has the characteristics that you want, whether it is "wild-type" or something else, then that is an accomplishment to be proud of. If an occasional bird "throws back" to something different then cull it from your stock.

Cheers
Brett