Seagreen RFPF

[monotwine]

I can understand where GregH is coming from as I am pro life and Dano for that matter on the euthanasia issue. I suppose it boils down to responsibility as an aviculturist. If you cannot 100% guarantee that whomever you place the birds with as hybrids will not in fact later sell them on as pure / pass them on unknown to anyone else that would breed them in the future, and don't want to keep them yourself then for the sake of purity in aviculture and the responsibility of breeding them in the first place it would have been kinder to toss the eggs or kill the offspring. Especially as in your country birdkeeping is a closed circuit. No fresh pure blood can be brought in once spoiled by hybrids unfortuantely.

[dano_68]

Hi Mono, I also value life in ALL creatures very highly. However, most people that breed hybrids eventually give into greed or need and sell them off as pure strain. In fact, in all my years in the finch trade I have never seen or heard of any breeder advertising hybrids for sale.

The reason I am so adamant about destroying hybrids is because we can ill afford to let them into our gene pool. A very good example is the Javan Munia (Lonchura leucogastroides) which is no longer available in Australia has a pure strain. You see, many “so-called” breeders crossed them with Bengalese to make a quick buck. They sold the off spring as Javan Munias (for about $350 pr). This then got mixed into the gene pool and now DNA has proven there is no pure strain Javans left. In fact, most of the hybrids are easy to pick because they can’t fly properly and their feet stick out like ducks!

The same thing is going on right now with Red-headed Finches and Cut-throats; Yellow Wing Pytilia and Aurora; Blue Caps and Red-cheek CB; Himalayan Greenfinches and Oriental Greenfinches and the list goes on (Weavers, Siskins, etc.)

Furthermore, “keepers” that accidently breed hybrids will not think twice or care about selling them on to others. Have you ever been to a finch sale? It’s like a feeding frenzy with people buying up anything that flies! If someone looking for the not so easy to get Tricoloured Pf sees them for $75 a pr rather than the usual $100 will think they have go the bargain of the century. Coupled with this may be the first time they have ever seen Tri PF in the flesh they will not recognise them as hybrids. So bang, they snap them up, bung them in the aviary and 12 months later they are selling the off spring as Tri coloured PF (unwittingly).

So GregH, would you be interested in buying these hybrids? Or Greg, what if you were the bloke that bought them at the sale then you find out 6 months later they are hybrids? Would you be upset or would you think it was ok? I really am curious – I am NOT being a smart**se.

[GregH]

Dano at the risk of unnecessarily escalating this issue, the people that use this blogg aren't the majority of bird keepers and I'm sure they wouldn't deliberately do the wrong thing. Sure serious aviculturists may hold the largest number of birds but the majority of people that keep birds have a lonely galah in a small cage or a pair of budgies or zebra finches in an even smaller one. The amateur breeders are the problem until they learn to be serious about their hobby. As you said the type of people who deliberately breed hybrids might be inclined to pass them off as pure which means they aren't going to destroy them just because serious breeders say they should. What they need is an alternative market and that is not the avicultural market but the pet market as the majority of people want only a pretty bird in a cage to look at. If serious breeders have their bird sales and shops why not let the general Pet Shops continue to serve their market with birds unlikely to enter the avicultural scene again?

Unless we have compulsory DNA testing for purity at every point of sale you are never going to get rid of cheats and if you look at the Olympic games there are professional cheats that will try to overcome even the strictest regulations. I for one am not going to place hybrid birds onto the avicultual market (I don't even breed mutations) and I don't want to promote the idea but since responsibility begins and ends with the honesty and responsibility felt by the individuals involved how can you control them?. Without actively enforced legislation and testing it can be argued that these rules or conventions regarding hybrids are purely subjective since they have no legal basis. Do aviculturists want more legislation, reporting, policing and costs - I doubt it. Education is the key to reducing the problem created by hybrids but it won’t eliminate it and even criminalising it won’t prevent it. Should hybridisation occur the ”perpetrators” need to educated in a responsible and humane fashion and one that won’t penalise them too much financially or they won’t have any incentive to continue with aviculture and that is how they will learn to be better aviculturists.

[Matt]

I agree completely with dano on the hybrid issue. There are currently hybrid cut-throats/aberdeens being offered for sale in a sydney dealer which is completely wrong and irresponsible of the dealer. As dano mentioned, these are quite likely going to find their way into the hands of the inexperienced who unknowingly think they are true cut-throats and pollute the future gene pool even more. Black headed nuns are another one that are almost impossible to find pure strains. I saw some black/white headed nun hybrids for sale about 6 months ago and I actually bought them just so nobody else could get their hands on them.

Back on topic. Sexing sea greens for experienced keepers is fairly easy and there are literally dozens of different methods which all have their merits. My order of preference is:

1. Body colour. When viewed in sunlight, the cock has a glossier, more irredescent looking green.
2. Face mask. As others have stated, the orange colour will extend further back beyond the eye in cock birds. The hens mask will also be a more beige/orange when compared to a cock but the colouring can tend to run in family groups so can be misleading if comparing different lines of birds.
3. The vent area. A few orange feathers here and it is a cock bird. When in breeding condition, blowing the vent area in a similar fashion to canary sexing is also accurate.

[desertbirds]

I dont like hybrids either and can see the risk if they are allowed to breed or passed on to the unsuspecting finch fan.Think Dano forgot to mention the Strawberry finch.A hybrid.Do we start knocking them all on the head,this would include most if not all Javan Munias,Strawberry finches,possibly Orange Breasts and the list goes on and on.I certainly have no intention of breeding hybrids and no chance of doing so.Fortunately there is enough people around doing the right thing to ensure pure strains of many species we do have.There was and possibly still is one breeder in Melbourne that has pure Javan munias,i think trying to pull his teeth out may be more successful than purchasing a pair.Maintaining some of the rare species is far more difficult than most realise,many of the species still available in small numbers might as well be gone without new blood being available in the for seeable future.The gene pool is so low we no longer have viable populations of many rare species.Sad but true.

[finchbreeder]

People make mistakes. I know I have. Twice. Once with a canary and a gold finch, no big deal he was sterile anyway and a great singer. BUT - I kept him as a pretty addition to my avairy till he died of old age! A second time when i foolishly kept Chestnut finches and Bengelese in the same avairy and thinking I had a pair of each. Well you can guess what happened. Only a knowledgeable breeder would have been able to pick the young as not pure Chestnuts. BUT - again I kept them in a seperate not breeding avairy till they, just recently in the case of the last one, died of old age. PEOPLE CAN MAKE MISTAKES AND ACT RESPONSIBLY.
LML

[monotwine]

Finchbreeder your attitude is 100%. People make mistakes, but it's how they handle those mistakes that sets them apart.

[desertbirds]

Well Mrsmacka did put four baby parrot finches on the perch and stated he or she would like to get another bird.Seeing some young ones might just ignite some interest in keeping finches and learning a bit along the way.Its not that far removed from where most bird keepers make a start.

[jusdeb]

Educate the people ..... if you look at Kakariki forums they often mention (describe) straight off the bat how to spot a hybrid and urge breeders not to breed them ....
Example ....Taken from Fiesty Feathers web site.

Breeding
The first thing you need to make certain of is that your birds are not hybrids. Red-fronts only have red and it's found on the crown, back past the eye, as a sort of stripe leading to eye and as a spot behind the eye. Yellow-crowns do not have the stripe or the spot near the eye, but have a small patch of red just above the cere and a yellow patch extending past over the eye. Hybrids look like yellow-crowns with a more orange color and sometimes a partial spot or stripe.

How to distinguish a hybrid.

Pics were put up but didnt post here anyhoo you get my drift about educating the people hey.