As for hybrids !!

[bleeding green]

by Fincho162 on Today, 18:38

A very interesting post. I tend to agree. I don't see my self as a conservationist. I'm not all for everything 'the environment'. I don't have this vision that one day everything wrong in the world will be 'right' again. I don't enjoy wild bird watching. I don't breed birds to save them. etc etc

I keep/breed birds because I enjoy it. I like seeing in my aviaries. I like seeing the nest building, or parrots working the box. The clutch of eggs, the young fledging. The birds flocking to feed on the extras I give them each day.

I do my best to buy pure birds as is non hybrids. I don't agree with careless x breeding or purpose cross breeding. I cringe when I see crossed birds, there is rarely a need for it. I do see the point for exotics though for which x breeding might be the only way we can maintain a strain which resembles the original. After all, in regard to exotics what we have here is not going to effect the wild bird populations.

I keep mutations but do understand the need to maintain a non mutant strain as well. Unfortuantely I am restricted due to space so most of the time I need to choose 1 or the other.

I don't care if a conservationist considers me to be keeping birds in gaol. What's the alternative? Let them go where most of the will die of starvation due to their domestication? Not allow breeding so all caged birds eventually die off? I just don't follow that train of thought. I look at my birds and they couldn't be happier.

That's pretty much my plain and simple take on it. I'll keep doing what I believe is right and what I enjoy.

[Myzomela]

Pot stirring is good for the soul Fincho!! If so, you must be an angel

I didn't mean to suggest that we all keep birds for altruistic conservation purposes. As Bleeding Green has said, the first reason we all keep birds is because we enjoy it- looking at birds, their behaviour and when those young hatch and fledge- well there's no better feeling.

But we can't expect authorities to give private aviculture Orange-bellied parrots if they think for example, we may cross them with elegants to get lutinos!!

I understand your frustrations with the Swifts/green rosellas/beautiful firetails in Tassie, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying.

We all know of examples where aviculture has been used to aid conservation programs- even in Australia OBPs bred in captivity (albeit mostly in zoos) have been released into the wild ( even if it has largely been a failure). But the Pink Pigeon and Echo parakeet are examples of successful projects.

My main gripe is deliberate hybridisation just for interest's sake, not for necessity's sake.

I agree with your Javan munia comment-although you'd think we would learn from past mistakes not to let species' numbers drop to such critical levels again...and again...
With the renewed interest by some clubs in "saving" certain species, then we can only hope this doesn't happen again.

Cheers

Myzo

[Fincho162]

No frustration Myzomela as I breed Greens and Beautifuls and have bred more Swifts than I' can remember.......never wanted to breed OB's....I'm the sort that doesn't like to be told by 'authorities' that I have 'no chance of success' as per the swifts.....once we proved them wrong we were doomed!!!!!! sad but true!!!!....
just pointing out that there is little chance of those tainted with the brush of aviculture being asked to contribute to conservation initiatives - no matter how good their pedigrees. And IMHO to point to what we do as a conservation initiative...........well in the immortal words of that great family man "Yer Dreamin'!!"

And like you I do it because I luv it and there is always a challenge out there............ a finch to push you to the limit............surely that's why god invented Blue-caps isn't it???!!!!

[Fincho162]

.........oh and I'll take the "angel" analogy Myzomela with much appreciation as I get called lots of things these days for my dogged defence of all things finch but don't think that word was on the list.................I'll take it my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And concur 100% with the hybrids for hybrids sake.
Like the newbie that came here last week to get me to identify his new "longtails" he'd purchsed from the petshop..............yep, cross bred Mask/Longtail.........and I imagine still very fertile.........sad!

[finchbreeder]

It is first and formost for the love of it that we do what we do. (I hope) The choice between original and mutation is a personal one. I do a bit of both. Hybrids - preferably not, but if it's the only way to keep a form of the bird................maybe.
Very few things in life are black and white. And I like to think that we are all conservationists to some degree.
LML

[arthur]

............surely that's why god invented Blue-caps isn't it???!!!!

Ah yes.. Bluecaps

Untainted by hybridisation

[Diane]

............surely that's why god invented Blue-caps isn't it???!!!!

Ah yes.. Bluecaps

Untainted by hybridisation

Do I take it that they might be?

[mickw]

Folks let's not get too judgemental re the issue of hybrids especially in regards exotic finches where there is no forseeable import of new blood on the horizon.
Sure the "new" Javan munia is not the real mccoy even though it looks the same.........so what.........they were never popular UNTIL they became scarce so whose fault is that..........rhetorical question = ours!!

The only problem I have with it is what happens to all those F1's and the likes that are the used to achieve the end result........as u say like all those used to keep Aberdeens afloat........they are a source of pollution if allowed to mix in with normal Cuttees for example!!

As to being conservationists..............I breed birds in cages nought else........I do my best to achieve great results in doing that...........I'm not and never have been a conservationist as related to the hobby of finch breeding..........ask the local wildlife authorities they'll soon tell you............and in case yer wondering I have a spotless record here!!!!!!!!

A while back a few of us bred Swift parrots and were so good at it that the price fell from $3500 a pair to around $500 these days...............we were still treated like criminals by our local wildlife department right up until we went out of them and were never considered for local endangered parrots breeding programs despite what we'd done...learn from that ....you can do the best for the birds in your care and ensure that they are propogated to the best of your ability but lets not kid ourselves about the conservation bit.........really.

This forum is full of dedicated breeders who do their utmost to breed finches.......the people that see us as "keeping birds in cages" will never alter their stance.........nor will we for that matter........but professing to be conservationists...........please!!!!!......anyway some wildlife authorities are just too dumb to see/use the wealth of talent that exists in the avicultural world.......unfortunately a real loss to 'real' conservation programs.

Just keep on breeding them there finches folks!!!!.......bet this stirs the pot a bit...........!!!!!!!!

Hey Fincho......try being a bird breeder AND a Forester ................ I consider myself a conservationist through both my hobby and my profession.........pretty much most of society doesnt though ......lets face it, everyone is encouraged these days to take pot shots at others for what they are doing wrong as they see it.....especially in the context of what "someone/them/they" are doing to the environment/animals/forests...........

"Conservation", as I learned it, is complex and dynamic, however it is mostly confused with "preservation" and the environment is grossly over simplified and anthropomorphised (I think GregH introduced this term to the forum ).........mix this in the blender with a generous helping of precautionary principles and you get your standard wildlife authority which pretty much represents most of society's thinking.......except when it impacts on them/us/me .............if its any consolation to you Fincho, they're the same up here

[Fincho162]

Lawdy!!

Never inferred current crop Blue-caps were hybridised.............if you read it in context again I mention them under the challenge to propogate list. But it has happened in the past and will no doubt happen again.....................Blue-breasts and cordons.....same thing..............

However, forgot the Himalayan greenfinch - hybrids all in Oz but enough of the original type to make it still a very attractive species. But still a hybrid...........a very desireable one I hasten to add.

Conservation is a buzz word these days..............even working with the swifts we never considered ourselves conservationists............we just did our best and just because the gov. bodies are too dumb to avail themselves of that knowledge for "conservation strategies" that makes them dumb not us!!!

I breed finches in aviaries nought more...........I've long since given up defending my hobby to those with the 'cage is wrong ' mentality......u cannot win so why waste energy!!!........who cares what they think. Why?? Because I can 'defend' my hobby to any gov. body /person based on the dedication and results that we've achieved..............but a conservationist I aint.

If they'd given us OB parrots 20years ago they be as common as Scarlets today..............but the us and them mentality is too entrenched in many of these gov bodies...................what a fun thread!!!!

[Diane]

Lawdy!!

Never inferred current crop Blue-caps were hybridised.............if you read it in context again I mention them under the challenge to propogate list.

No you didnt, but I thought that arthur might have with his sign