Finch Trends and Status in Australia

[toothlessjaws]

thanks to dano for putting this list together.

i was wondering, of the critically endangered bird species, just how rare are they? are some of these complete write offs? are there really too few say, green avadavat's left?

i would love to know more info if people have an actual idea (or more likely a guesstimate) of how many birds we are talking about here.

also can we compile a list for exotic softbills?

i'm particularly keen to know the status of:

Red crested cardinal
Silver-eared Mesia

also some birds are not listed:

Green-backed twinspots
Yellow-billed cardinals (i had read someplace they existed here once also...)

[toothlessjaws]

In terms of what people can do to preserve a species,

i think that obviously finding breeders that you trust and develop a personal relationship with is a massive bonus. and this is made all the harder since finch breeders can be people of all sorts of political persuasions, attitudes, age and personality. Likewise, people live scattered all over the country. i'm in my early 30's - i don't know too many other finch obsessives that are my age and actually interested in the hobby.

but also from a practical point of view you just have to get over the "breed everything" state of mind. which is hard. i'd call it the "collectors" state of mind but there is nothing to say you can't keep a variety of other finches whilst focusing on one species specifically. however, its the idea of having to keep breeding pairs of everything, that probably does us over. most people (myself excluded) seem to have multiple aviaries. ideally a hobbyist would keep breeding pairs of a given species in as many aviaries as possible. these birds would be the priority and what the keeper focus' on breeding each season. however they may choose to have a "display aviary" near the house, with mix up of elderly and spare birds of various that they chose to acquire and keep just for aesthetics. its hard to look at a lone cordon bleu cock and not want to buy him a hen, but maybe thats what we need to do. you can still keep your various birds, but just maybe not worry about breeding them. save those resources for your twinspots of silverbills or whatever.

focusing long term on one species you'll also become known as the "silverbill guy" and probably wont have any problems selling off stock either.

[Fincho162]

hi Roma....by $$$ I don't mean the breeders themselves I'm referring to the exporters which I gather aren't the main breeders anyway.
Suffice it to say we (you and I and other breeders) have little control over that aspect of the hobby but many clubs are getting on board and breeding the cheaper species - the FSA for one.

Is the aspect of censuses actually showing you anything??........well yer dreamin' if you think so as none of the breeders I know contribute to it for a multitude of reasons - before you jump on me - well founded reasons based on past roll out's of the same thing!!!!
I have one of the rarer species and I have given them to various friends in the hope of getting them going again - people I trust ....sure, I could sell them for big $$$$$ and make a killing but I choose not to.........not in this game for big $$$ myself but many are and good luck to them in reality!
Yes, we have lost a lot of species but there are a host of reasons for that .......mostly as a result of federal legislation if the truth be known............but that too is still "our" fault to a degree.
All we can do is the best we can.............with the birds we have and then aim to move onto the "harder to breed" species.....or what's left of them!!

[roma9009]

Hi fincho I don't agree that we as meaning the breeders have little control over what happens as it is us breeding the birds.in all respect that is good that you give them to friends and people you trust to try and get them going again but it should not be for the dollars by all means let numbers build up and get different gene pools goin before exporting them talk to other breeders we have on of the most useful tools bird breeders have ever had and your sitting at it ( your computer) this gives you freedom and find out who is breeding your species to get new blood in thing is that with all the birds out here there is a old gene pool with no new blood coming in that is a nother factor of breeding as iver sayed before australian breeders are one of the best in the world as we have the climate and ther knowladge to breed them as for harder species because of this you don't have that many to choose from so there you go. all breeders have a great breeding season and get the numbers of the rarer and hard to find species

[Fincho162]

You think so??
Well you're entitled to your opinion but I think history has proven otherwise.
I saw around 30 Red-crested cardinals in a bird shop in NSW back in the day that had been purchased from breeders for export............the seller knew where they were going but the $$$ were greater........so as much as we'd have liked them at the time the demand from overseas fuelled their fate. Again the mighty $$$ rules.
The NEBRS period also further illustrates this as we bred numerous Redpolls, Grey singers , Golden song sparrows, mexican rose finches and Chaffinches. we couldn't give them away as once paperwork was required for them no-one wanted them as they were the cheaper of the exotics at the time. So we stopped breeding them - if you have 30 grey singers in the holding cage no sense in adding another 10 - simple logic!! Of those birds there are possibly only the Songie and the Chaffy that still exist in any sort of numbers.

So basically we have little control over market forces, legislation ..........even supply and demand - especially from overseas........mind you doesn't mean we should ever stop trying of course.

[Myzomela]

But don't you think we are at times our own worst enemies Fincho?

We don't keep certain birds because we can't sell them. Usually these are the duller species.

History has shown us time and time again that these species only increase in numbers after their populations have dropped and their value increased. People get excited and start to breed them again, their numbers increase, their price drops. In the end they end up in the hands of the inexperienced who invariably lose them. All this you well know.

So how many times does this have to happen before the numbers drop too low making recovery improbable/impossible- eg the species you have listed? And before we foresee the inevitable and start retaining some pairs in our collection even when financially they are worth nothing?

The most encouraging development of late has been the increased awareness of this amongst some clubs/organisations/individuals and the effort being put into breeding up numbers of less popular species. I know that you and several others on this forum have been involved in this and to you all I say congratulations! I wish it happened earlier- we may still have some of those species already mentioned.

I have always upheld the philosophy that the time to get into a species is when everyone else is getting out of them, for surely the wheel will turn full circle and when they are in demand again we will at least have some on hand.

I guess we're slow learners at times ;)

[Fincho162]

Slow learners indeed as nought has ever changed in that regard since I've been in finches.

Yes, we are our own worst enemies......that was the point of most of most of my posts in this thread.........but do you seriously think that will change??

Time, space, work, legislation and other priorities all impinge upon what species you elect to keep.........plus the trophy hunters that buy it because a) its rare b) they can afford to...........!!!! Seen many a species disappear that way........
But then again bred nearly 100 silverbills one year and sold the lot for $10/pair- best I could get!!!!.......would never bother with them again regardless of their rarity.....as a finch did nought for me............so add in personal preference as well!!!!

It has happened before many times nothing new there - breeding 'threatened species" and the likes......unfortunately same end result when only a few have them.........depleted blood lines..........lack of new blood.........not a pretty picture..........

Altruism? Back at the start of this someone suggested that $$$ should not be a factor......bollocks!!!.....I know of several recoveries where one person outlaid many $$ to purchase the remnants of species and had huge success........but there comes a time when they must re-coop their initial costs.......regardless of any other considerations...........logical.

Seems a bit of a cyclic debate unfortunately..............oh well, we can but breed what we can breed I suppose and do the best we can with what is at hand!!

[roma9009]

sorry fincho you have your opinion and your entitled to your opinion

[E Orix]

I have read this section with interest and I would like to add fuel to the fire.
Australian breeders ARE NOT the best breeders of birds in quantity!!!!!!
Some individuals in Europe leave us for dead.After saying that they have their limitations with regard species that suit cage breeding though.
In my opinion the most prolific way to breed quantity is cage breeding and those people are light years ahead of us.
My personal opinion is that I can't stand cage breeding and I try to breed the species in outside aviaries that are so hard to cage breed that
they are not really an option.Across the whole of Aust. breeders I am sure, are the better managers of aviary bred species. We have to be as we must maintain domesticated lines. Once gone thats it.
Dollars for birds.
I make no apology for selling birds,my collection is and has been self supporting and thats how it should be.
It doesn't mean I wont help people out and I try to.Many years ago when I decided to move into expensive species I didn't have the capitol to do so.
The only way was to breed birds and sell to buy again. I did this until I got married,once again my wife was and isn't a bird person so I couldn't go to our savings and pull a couple of $1000 and say thanks wife.The doctors bills would have been more and still no birds. So like most people with big collections, bird accounts or tins in the back yard were created.Why because if something rare came on the market you needed the cash then and there.
So selling became the norm,demand ment more people bred the particular specie and our culture evolved.
A few years ago a particular specie came on the market, there were 9 birds for $12,000. Huge money but 3 of us were able to get them thanks to
us selling other birds. Later a final pair became available and they cost me $5000 so I was $9000 out of pocket. I kept the specie for 6 years and bred 72+ from memory so my investment was a success.What was the result,there were many winners all the way down the ladder.Me 1st,then those who wanted them,many had to sell their less expensive birds which came on the market for people with lesser budgets to buy their birds and so on.
Today that specie is still being bred because we had learned a few tricks and better access to diets helped. The only down side with regard demand and supply is when a market gets over supplied,so what if you have to sell cheap.That allows another group to gain access to another specie that they could not afford earlier. Alls good.
As for the expensive species many change hands at no cost between big collections so we can try and keep the blood lines the best way we can.
Lets not knock free enterprise as it has kept our hobby going for so long.If you want better birds keep breeding the less expensive and sell to improve or expand

[Lukec]

Completely agree with these comments.

I laugh when you refer to stashes of cash for birds, i know of a gentlemen thats wife found his bird stash and unfortunately she wanted a piece when she found the 47k. Why he hid it under the kitchen sink is beyond me but i suppose it did last 20 odd years before it was found.

Sorry, orix, out of curiosity what were the birds you bought and bred?....feel free not to answer this.