Pure head colours

[Gerjanssen33]

There is NO reason not to mix up headcolours by gouldians.
You need the Blackhead.
But the question is for or aussie breeding freinds.

Regards Ger Janssen.

[finchbreeder]

I am breeding YH x YH mostly, but some RH x RH and RH x YH. No BH in this avairy. Did this last year and again this year with same dominant pair and some sons of dominant YH cock to outcross hens. As these outcross hens are my mothers stock I know they have also been bred in the same way. One of the young cocks from last year has no black under the chin. And the black is reduced on both of the brothers I kept. As well as really deep orange head colour.
LML

[Tiaris]

I've never seen a normal gouldian with no black at all under the chin. Do you still have him?

[finchbreeder]

Yes. I bred him last year, and hope to breed him this year. Parents have bred again this year, but neither of the young cocks (this guy or his brother) have as yet. Has been a very dry year here in the midwest, so Autum breeding was pretty dismal. But it has been pouring down the last month and nests are appearing in main avairy, birds looking in nests with enthusiasm in Gouldian avairy, so fingers crossed for a great late winter early spring breed. My main avairy has a pair each of BH and RH who I think are bonded to their own head colour. Both young pairs, no action yet. I am a hopeless photographer and poster of pics, but will try to get some pics taken and posted with the help of my mother and Butterfly. who are so much more tech savey than me. (I still owe a pic of my finch traps - haven't forgotten just not got a wriggle on)
LML

[pdg]

Interesting story finchbreeder! A few questions:
You say there is no black chin (or reduced) in these few YH birds. What colour does their chin have? (answer is important in relation to genetics and feather type)
This really deep orange, could this be very ‘undeep’ red? Sometimes you can see wild gouldians on photos posted on the internet which have a head colour that is between red and yellow.
Finchbreeder,who are you referring to when you say “most people don’t understand genetics”? If not, why do you think not and could you be a bit more clear on that?

It would also be interesting to know what would happen if you’d put that YH to a BH again.

Your experiment with successive pure head colour pairs is very interesting, if you ask me. It would really be very helpful if you could show us a few photos of that YH cock and the two other reduced ones. I hope for you that they will breed this year and wonder what their offspring will look like.

[finchbreeder]

When selling birds, I so often find that everyone wants the "pretty" ones. And when you explain about splits and putting them together to get the "pretty" ones. Many people who have just had the whole thing explained to them give you a blank look and say I will just have them (the pretty ones" They did not understand a word you said even though you explained in detail.
The young YH (orange) with no black under the chin, has the orange right to the beak.
LML

[Diane]

Ill post the pics for you when you get them.

[pdg]

When selling birds, I so often find that everyone wants the "pretty" ones. And when you explain about splits and putting them together to get the "pretty" ones. Many people who have just had the whole thing explained to them give you a blank look and say I will just have them (the pretty ones" They did not understand a word you said even though you explained in detail.
The young YH (orange) with no black under the chin, has the orange right to the beak.
LML

I totally understand (from own experience) your feelings about what you said, finchbreeder! (Not in relation to the pure YH you are breeding, since it is not a mutation- or is it? )

Very strange/interesting that the black under the chin has made place for yellow/orange! Because the feather structure of the black kind is different from the yellow (see e.g. Evans and Fidler – The Gouldian Finch, p. 149) . As far as I understand the literature on the matter, the black ones would not be able to show yellow if the structure of the feather remains the same and even then. The yellow or red ones must therefore – I think – push the black ones away (genetically, because of pure x pure). This is a least in accordance with what is seen with the disappearance of the black head band too. But what about the genes. No doubt the chin of the brothers looks like the head of a RH hen bred from a RH x BH pair? This must mean that the genes of the bird that normally make sure there is a black head band and chin are somehow influenced by breading pure x pure.

A question that seems to pop up now, is: “What would prevent the rest of the bird to become yellow or red, given the probability that the disappearance of the black zones is due to change of feather structure?” If it would come down to just pigments, the black can only be present or not (white), or be grey like with the pastel. So where is the limit? As I said it would be interesting to know how it would evolve from that to something more. Have you ever considered pairing the YH cock to his mother?

Another problem that comes to mind is what I said about the RH hen bred from a RH x BH. Mostly, such hens show a lot of randomly spread black feathers in the red head. Cocks however never do!!! The red of the head in the RH cock bred from such pairs different; it is a kind of darker red (wine like). My first guess is that the red and black feathers are always evenly arranged on the head in cocks. Another reason, but probably less likely, could be that there is a kind of intermediate feather which would have both pigments in one feather: black and red, due also to a change in structure.
So, I might have to change my questions about the brother’s chins: Are the chins of the YH’s brothers a kind of darker red (or are they more like the head of a RH hen bred from a RH x BH pair)?

[finchbreeder]

Went and had a jolly good look. Very dissapointed. Birds have just gone through 1st adult moult and "no black chin" has moulted out with a black chin????? Don't ask me to explain this one. Will trust those who understand feather change/trama??? better. Both the boys are deep rich orange where they are "yellow" Parents are also pretty deep and clean in colouring. Won't put the son to mum because the pair bond with parents is very strong and they are very successful breeders of successive and clean headed young. And have just started nesting again after the really cold spell we have had. (by our standards here in WA)
LML

[pdg]

Thanks for having a look and sorry to hear your expectations haven’t been satisfied finchbreeder. Still looking forward to the pics; I’d like to see that deep rich orange.
There is still no real good reason – except for experimenting or personal preference – not to mix head colours. I do not expect anyone to come up with one. I had hoped to get some good reasons from the purist crusaders I read about before. I am also happy to know that I wouldn’t be considered a bad gouldian finch breeder in Australia because I don’t keep the head colour pure. Thinking about all what’s been said here in this topic up to now, it seems there is a lot more research that can be done; experimenting.

I will be breeding my gouldians to the European standard (more specifically to the standard held by SNGN), since there is no Australian standard and therefore I'll be mixing head colours (and sometimes not mixing them).