Aussie Finch Forum

SamDavis wrote: And they don't just go for the seed they spend ages running their beaks along the shafts of grass.

When I put the wheatgrass in the aviaries that's exactly what the birds to to it

Gregh,
There is no anti-intellectual sentiment in what I said. I was just passing on what Dr Low used to say to his peers as a way of keeping it real and not taking yourself too seriously - he was a good college. I have worked with some of the best sceintists within unis, govt and private industry. I have also worked with analysists, investigators, labourers, farmers etc etc and found that there is more to intelligence then a string of letters as a suffix to ones name - it doesnt necessarily = intellect. I think the cause of breeding is only partly associated with the presence of green seed, there are other agents that contribute to breeding success (temp, degree days, light hours, rainfall, RH) but are not necessarily causitive. Going back to the original thread if milk and sprouted seeds were available in abundance (wrt spatial and temporal distribution) would birds/other taxa use both or would there be a preference. Again I think breeding and milk seed availablity is associative. It is without a doubt that you will have better breeding results from milk seed then dry seed alone. I never said that sprouted seed was a replacement for milk seed (or other parts of the nutrition equation essential for good breeding results). Until trials are done we are purley speculating about the relavtive benefits of both. Even if a metaanalysis of the current data was done we may or may not be able to prove one is better then the other.

SamDavis, yes agree with your observations, why do birds consume the green stems and green shoots often in preference to the milk seed on the same stem????

Gouldian Paul, agree there is always a risk with sprouted seed having a bad batch and fermenting etc. However if you pick lots of milk seed and put it in a conatiner it will heat up much like a compost heap as the seeds are metabolizing until forzen. Seed not processed and frozen very quickly will reach very damaging temperatures ( ie well above 40C) and protein will be denatured etc and post harvest breakdown products can be just as bad as sprouted seed that has gone bad. Your practical solution of little bits often and at certain times of the day is a way to go.

Regarding the birds chewing the stem before the seed .
Next time you pick wild oats chew the stem ...very sweet so I imagine other grasses may also be sweet and more appealing to the birds .

Sorry just a laymans observations .

First of all i must say what an excellent question. Like others i do not know all the scientific data to compare one against the other,what i do have is many years of experience and from this i would choose green milk seed before sproted seed every time. I have used both over the years and breeding success as been far better when using the green milk seed which we can purchase in the U.K. I have been led to believe that the sugar content is greater in milk seed than sprouted thus giving nestlings more easily digestible energy. For many years now i have gone down the route of feeding an absolute minimum of insect food if any at all prefering to feed my rearing mix which basically is 2 parts boiled seed 1 part Cede eggfood plus milk seed sprays plus 8/9 defrosted pinkie maggots twice a day, this system as worked well in the rearing of Violet Eared Waxbills, Peters & Brown twinspots, Black Cheeked Waxbills,Red Cheeked and Blue Capped Cordon Bleus, Vinaecous and Black Bellied Firefinches plus many others including most Australian Estrildids.
Regards Bob

I was researching this question, particularly with respect to half-ripe/milk seed, when I came across this old post.
Like Trilobote I was interested what the evidence was behind the generalisations.
As has been eluded to above there seems to have been relatively little work done in this area.

I checked the article GregH refered to:

Allen,L.R.; Hume, I.D. (1997) The importance of green seed in the nitrogen nutrition of the Zebra Finch Taeniopygia guttata. Austral Ecology 4:412-418.

Unfortunately I was only able to access the extract
It does sound an interesting read and may have some applicable information in the article
Does anyone have access to the full article ?

For those that have not read It I will quote the conclusion.

" These results indicate that the benefit of green vs ripe seed in the diet of breeding Zebra finches is partly a higher level of the limiting essential amino acid, lysine, and partly a higher intake and throughput of soft green seed and consequent greater extraction of limiting essential amino acids."

Cheers
Brett

With the later than usual harvest of Lowe's frozen white millet milk seed this year, I have been using just sprouted seed as a substitute for the past couple of months. Other commitments prevented me obtaining the green seed this year so I've decided to go a full year without the milk seed & just offer sprouted seed as the consistent daily soft seed offering and compare the breeding results with previous years. Other greens are also offered regularly as well, as they were in previous years.
So far, results have been encouraging but still early days. My 2 most herbivorous species, Gouldians and Parrotfinches, have shown no noticeable decline in breeding output. In fact, the start to this Gouldian season has been by far my most productive start in recent years but I also tried a different, staggered method of introducing nest boxes when each pair was totally ready which I feel has been the main contributor to the better start to their season. Hatchling development & rearing rates have been excellent too though, which should be more dependent on diet. The impending cooler months should add some adversity to the trial but so far so good.

Hi Tiaris,

I think it is always difficult to pin point the exact reasons why one season is better than another, although I agree that your change in the timing of when your boxes were provided seems like a logical reason why your season has started off so well.

As far as diet is concerned I always like to provide as much variety to my birds as possible. Let your birds choose. I provide home grown silver beet, milk seed, sprouted seed and wild seedling grasses...these are taken by my birds at different rates, hence they seem to have different preferences despite many being breed by myself and provided with similar food types.

I hope your season continues to go well.

Cheers
Paul

Tiaris wrote:If comparing the relative merits of both it pays to look back at which of the 2 forms of seed is the main instinctive trigger to breeding activity & rearing young in wild finches. My thoughts are that half-ripe green seed wins this hands down & this is most likely for physiological requirements of dependent young finches as much as it is also availability in the wild and seasonal timing of this availability coinciding with suitable breeding temperature, livefood supply etc. Having said this I still offer sprouted seed also but give higher priority to green seed as breeding food.

Seasonal timing doesn`t always coincide with idealic temps for breeding but the wild birds seems to cope (or not) and put a few on the perch. Half ripe/ ripe fresh seed heads are the best . Well said Tiaris , im always suprised at what the birds here can survive and thrive on, not a lot really when times are tough.

Interesting debate.
Guess we're the "control" group down here as we don't have frozen green seed here (and to be brutally honest i wouldn't bother with it if we did). Despite some misconceptions we breed as many as most without it on a basis of soaked/sprouted seed supplemented with green grass heads which they love.
Photoperiod - lengthening daylight hours - is probably the most effective stimulus to the onset of breeding and no-one knows that more than any Taswegian!!
A good time to pep up your feeding regime but here it doesn't rely on any one additive.

By observing certain people in the Hunter that do or dont use frozen seed I can see very little difference in their breeding results over time.
I know many swear by frozen seed but just a post to let you know that there are a few plodders left that rely on soaked/sprouted seed alone and have done for decades. Horses for courses!
But hey, if you swear by the other just keep swearing!!

Fincho162 wrote:Interesting debate.
Guess we're the "control" group down here as we don't have frozen green seed here (and to be brutally honest i wouldn't bother with it if we did). Despite some misconceptions we breed as many as most without it on a basis of soaked/sprouted seed supplemented with green grass heads which they love.
Photoperiod - lengthening daylight hours - is probably the most effective stimulus to the onset of breeding and no-one knows that more than any Taswegian!!
A good time to pep up your feeding regime but here it doesn't rely on any one additive.

By observing certain people in the Hunter that do or dont use frozen seed I can see very little difference in their breeding results over time.
I know many swear by frozen seed but just a post to let you know that there are a few plodders left that rely on soaked/sprouted seed alone and have done for decades. Horses for courses!
But hey, if you swear by the other just keep swearing!!

Marcus,i use the frozen green seed and the majority also feed soaked and sprouted seed as well usually mixed together,i don't use the green seed as an additive but more so as a green seed in times when i can't get fresh green seeding grass seeds in fact i don't feed fresh seeding grass seeds as they get this daily in their mix every day because that's what it is,so i don't understand what you are trying to say.
You can probably say i have become a lazy green food supplier but in actual fact i am probably feeding just as much green seeding grass as you but it's not on the stem,it's clean and easily accessible from the freezer and it defrosts in minutes.
Each of my aviaries has a large green pannic plant that seeds for six months of the year and surprisingly,not much is taken by the birds in the aviaries since i have been supplying frozen green french millet.
The birds i have kept recently and keep now,breed from now to the end of November so the frozen green seed is a god sent for my birds over Winter/early Spring. Craig