Green seed vs sprouted seed

[Trilobite]

HI all,
I didnt want to interfer with the green seed from ray and wendy thread so have started this one as I would really like an informed and qualified statement on this one from a scientific point of view.
Question: what is the difference nutritionally between sprouted seed and greenseed.
I dont want ad hoc or anecdotal statements like " my birds do better on it, or they have better colour/vigour etc" I would like to know if someone has done the nutritional analysis.
I am not trying to discredit the green seed trade as i use it myself so this is not my intent - I just want the science behind it if someone has it at their fingertips.

[GregH]

There are differences in the nutrition offered between green ripening seed, dry ripened seed and sprouted seed. Grass seeds store energy in the form of starch within the endosperm cells and proteins in storage plastids inside these cells and especially in the outer aleurone layer as well as in the embryo. The interesting thing about the seed's proteins is that they are all translocated into the developing seed in the first week after fertilisation while the endosperm cell walls form (milky stage). The nutritional consequence of this is that the protein to carbohydrate ratio is much higher than in the mature dry seed and as a food source is more akin to egg than seed. The availability of green seed (milk-seed) is associated with breeding success in granivourous species (Zebra finches, Budgies and house mice). Even if the nutritional value were the same, dry seed has to be consumed with water and grit and may swell to such an extent that it could be potentially lethal as has been reported in farm livestock fed on dry grain. For a hatchling finch accessing the nutrients in the seed itself is easier and less risky since green seeds have a softer texture and contain higher levels of soluble proteins and amino acids. In addition to softening, the storage proteins of sprouted seed are being broken down into amino acids and reconstituted to more readily utilised polypeptides and proteins. Amongst these proteins is the amylase produced by the aleurone which breaks down the endosperm starch store into shorter chains and ultimately to the glucose sub-units which are very easily absorbed and used by the growing plant embryo or the nestling that subsequently eats the sprouted seed.

In domesticated grasses, perhaps with the exception of corn (Zea mays) the spikiest (flowers) are staggered in development so that a range of maturity is present when you get hold of green seed. This is a good strategy for the grass as it reduces the chance that all seed will be lost on an inflorescence to developmentally sensative predation or environmental sensitivity. This of course mean not all the milk-seed you collect/purchase is at the stage you want but it is still good for your birds. Even before it flowers finches will attack the immature flowers of some grasses (notably bamboo)to access the protein store in the pollen in the anthers.

[Trilobite]

G'day Gregh,
Thanks for the information you have provided in plant bilogy/physiology 101. Yes your correct in that there are differences between the different forms of seeds and your information related to green and ripened seed. Quote "There are differences in the nutrition offered between green ripening seed, dry ripened seed and sprouted seed" What are these???, I am still none the wiser.

Sprouting seed will have mobilised proteins, amino acids, sugars, fats, minerals and of course respiratory/metabolic breakdown products as would milk seed. I think wild birds etc would eat milk seed for a few reasons, a) milk seed is good nutritionally and easy from a digestive persepective. b) birds etc are inherently lazy and milk seed is generally in one place so work/reward rations is very skewed. If sprouting seed was in the one place ie easy to get then it would be consumed I think for the same reasons nutritionally. I am sure anyone tryin to sprout vege seed will attest to this with mice eating seeds 2-3 days after planting why?????

So back to the question: does anyone have scientific information that compares the nutritional profiles of milk and sprouted seed.

[Fincho162]

The nutritional value of the seed tip/growth tip of the sprouting seed is around 300% more nutritious and vitamin rich than dry seed so they say...........perhaps that's why the meeces luv it at that stage too! In short the smaller the sprout the more nutritous it is................

How that corresponds to milk seed I have no idea......................

[GregH]

Tilobite if you want the nutritional information listed like on a box of cereal you aren't going to find it for all nutrients, in all seed species, for all growth stages, all in one convenient place - as you might in finch nutrition 101. If you have the time you may get some of the figures from the USDA's Nutrient Database. I no-longer have free access to the primary literature so I've only got what's on-line and that's only the abstracts. A grain once removed from the parent plant becomes a closed system so it can not create mineral nutrients but what it has can become more readily available when sprouted and a sprouting grain can even manufacture vitamins, de novo, from precursor molecules. This explains why you see figures like this:

Energy content - calories Decrease 15 per cent.
Total carbohydrate content Decrease 15 per cent
Protein availability Increase 30 per cent
Calcium content Increase 34 per cent
Potassium content Increase 80 per cent
Sodium content Increase 690 per cent
Iron content Increase 40 per cent
Phosphorous content Increase 56 per cent
Vitamin A content Increase 285 per cent
Thiamine or Vitamin B1 content Increase 208 per cent
Riboflavin or Vitamin B2 content Increase 515 per cent
Niacin or Vitamin B3 content Increase 256 per cent
Ascorbic acid or Vitamin C content An infinite increase

Seeds contains very little of most nutrients so a doubling or tripling (i.e. a 200-300 % increase from a base of almost nothing) is not that remarkable compared to a 15% decrease in carbohyrate and an infinite increase in vitamin C is expected when it is only present because the sprout is manufacturing it and not in the seed.

If you want to know more specifics then you need to go to a University library and pay for primary literature - hopefully you will get your numbers you want but they aren't likely to be for the seed you are feeding so these reports (e.g. is at the a same as egg or 300% more nutritious) are generalisations but if you want to fund a project you will get the exact answer you require otherwise the best you'll get will come from the likes of:

• Allen,L.R.; Hume, I.D. (1997) The importance of green seed in the nitrogen nutrition of the Zebra Finch Taeniopygia guttata. Austral Ecology 4:412-418.
• Allen,L.R.; Hume, I.D. (2001) The Maintenance Nitrogen Requirement of the Zebra Finch Taeniopygia guttata. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology,74:366-375.
• Arnold, K.E.; Blount, J.D.; Metcalf, N.B.; Orr, K.J., Adam, A.; Houston, D.; Monaghan, P. (2006) Sex-specific differences in compensation for poor neonatal nutrition in the zebra finch Taeniopygia guttata. Journal of Avian Biology, 3:356-366.
• Blount, J.D.; Metcalf, N.B.; Arnold, K.E.; Surai, P.F.; Monaghan, P. (2006) Effects of neonatal nutrition on adult reproduction in a passerine bird. Ibis, 148: 509-514.
• Cottom, M.; Houston, D; Lobley, G.; Hamilton, I (2001) The use of muscle protein for egg production in the Zebra Finch Taeniopygia guttata. Ibis, 14: 210-217.
• Houston, D.C.; Donnon, D.; Jones, P.; Hamilon, I.; Osbourne, D. (1995) Changes in the muscle condition of female Zebra Finches Poephila guttata during egg laying and the role of protein storage in bird skeletal muscle. Ibis, 137: 322-328.
• Howarth, J.R.; Parmar, S.; Jones, J.; Shepherd, C.E.; Corol, DI.; Galster, A.M.; Hawkins, N.D.; Miller, S.J.; Baker, J.M.; Verrier, P.J.; Ward, J.L.; Beale, M.H.; Barraclough P.B.; Hawkesford, M.J. (2008) Co-ordinated expression of amino acid metabolism in response to N and S deficiency during wheat grain filling. Journal of Experimental Botany 2008 59(13):3675-3689; doi:10.1093/jxb/ern218.
• Kumar, S; Chauhan, B.M. (1993). Chemical composition and utilization of pearl millet sprouts. Molecular Nutrition 37:356–363.
• Mutze, G (2007) Does high growth rate of juvenile house mice with prolonged access to ripening grain and free water drive population outbreaks? New Zealand Journal of Zoology, 34:195–202
• Sommerburg, O.; Langhans, C.D.; Arnhold, J.; Leichsenring, M; Salerno, Carlo Crifò, C.; Hoffmann, G.F.; Debatin, K.M.; Siems; W. G. (2003). β-Carotene cleavage products after oxidation mediated by hypochlorous acid—a model for neutrophil-derived degradation. Free Radical Biology & Medicine, 35:1480–1490.
• White, T.C.R. (2002). Outbreaks of house mice in Australia: limitation by a key resource. Aust. J. Agric. Res. 53:505–509.

[Trilobite]

GregH, Thnaks for your reply, this is more what I was trying to draw out. Dont worry I have access to a plethora of scientific literature. I guess when you look at the simplistic results below your start to validate some assumptions: Sprouted seeds have some good nutritional benefits that would serve well the digestive and metabolic demands of a yound developing finch just as green seed does. As to the bioavaliabitly from each source then that is another question.
Agree with the logic of a doubling of nothing is really nothing. But a halfing of nothing is also nothing. Any nutrional shortfalls in carbs are made up with digested dry seeds/greens etc. I think from the basic assumptions above one could assume that given the increase in nutritional qualities, sprouted seeds and the ease and cheapness to which we can produce good quality sprouts, one would have to consider it as very good viable source of nutrition when compared to the cost of green seed. Dont get me wrong I use both - variety!!. But when all is said and done there may not be much difference between the two. As pointed out earlier there is a spectrum of development in green seed in the wild and at harvest, as also when sprouts are manufactured, so nutrional aspects at each stage is relatively mute - ie you win some and you loose some, but the whole is what is important.

Anyway I hope I have planted a seed to get people thinking more about diet and nutrition and why we try and emulate what happens in the wild to get the best breeding results possible form our captive audience.

[GregH]

Trilobite I think you are not making the right comparison. When the literature talks about green seed being good for granivores they aren't talking about the fully hydrated, mature seed just before it dries down since there is no difference in nutritional value between mature seed wether it's green seed or dry. The Big difference is between milk-seed and mature grain. On a dry weight or per grain basis mature dry seed is lucky to achieve 8-12% protein but in the immature milk seed protein can be 40% or more. That is why it is such a good food for breeding and finishing your finches and their protein requirements have evolved to match this food source. As mike Fidler likes to point out too the crude protein levels aren't always a good indication of if a food is good for nutrition either. Toe-nail clipping are 98% protein (I don't want to even think what the other 2% is) but they aren't digestible and make a very poor food source whereas egg contains less protein but is 100% available. The big difference as you pointed out is a strong correlation between cost per unit weight and quality. Chicken farmers have the best literature on this this but finding something specific for finches will be difficult but it might be worth fiddling with some of the poultry diets as a starter if you wanted to formulate something and go into competition with with Passwells, Roudy Bush or Vetafarm. Most people feed green seed because they want to give something more than just economic protein and in a form that's more natural than a pellet . A case can be made for environmental enrichment and allowing your stock to forage naturally to satiate their natural urges as well as their nutritional requirements.

[Tiaris]

If comparing the relative merits of both it pays to look back at which of the 2 forms of seed is the main instinctive trigger to breeding activity & rearing young in wild finches. My thoughts are that half-ripe green seed wins this hands down & this is most likely for physiological requirements of dependent young finches as much as it is also availability in the wild and seasonal timing of this availability coinciding with suitable breeding temperature, livefood supply etc. Having said this I still offer sprouted seed also but give higher priority to green seed as breeding food.

[Trilobite]

Tiaris,
Is the availabily of milk seed a trigger to breeding or is it coincidental. The time of the year when milk seed is available generally coincides with a range of other goodies, flies, moths, alates of termites/ants, new shoots/greens etc not to mention potentially better environment for young bird development - temp wise. This is of course evolutionary adaptation or divine intervention (your choice of belief/reasoning). However my point below was: milk seed is a good source beacause it is available concentrated in place and time. So to maximise your returns you go for the easy pickings. (as a comparison, bees wont fly 5 km to get food if it is available 500m away - instinctive common sense in a way). If per chance sprouted seed was just as easily available in space and time, would it be just as favourable for the nutritional aspects, I believe so.

GregH, you state the immature milk seed protein can be 40% or more, is this anecdotal statement or published in the literature. We know the 14% protein in dry grains from the extensive work in the wheat/grain industry. I have never been comparing green seed with sprouted seed, my question was alway surrounding the comparison between milk seed and sprouted seed nutrionally and the cost per unit weight amoungst other things.

I dont want to go into any production schemes - hardly enough time now to do what I have on my plate now. Dont knock the pellets and formulated foods for without them our husbandry and success with many species would still be in the dark ages.

[GregH]

Trilobite the only known work on this is in the papers of Allen & Hume referred to in my first post. I don't have access to those papers anymore as I suggested earlier you will have to go to a University library that has the journals referred to or pay for a transcript but I recall the data is published in them for a limited number of native grasses. As I recall is that the "green seed" isn't defined as "milk seed" which means that like the Lowes seed the panicles contain a mix of seed maturities. In the wild birds are free to pick and choose a range of seed and the evidence is that breeding is triggered by the presence or anticipated presence of "milk seed". Breeding in Estrillids appears seasonal because there tends to be regular seasonal cycles of abundance of grass seed but in reality such abundance is largely associated with rainfall. It's well known (and published) that breeding in mice, zebra finches, budgies and parrot finches is dependent on the availability of food, that supplies are ephemeral and can occur at ANY time of the year. As for the data on protein levels versus carbohydrate levels in grain the data can only be gleaned by looking through the literature. Such a review wasn't my intention but I too wanted to know that there is science behind statements like "milk-seed provides protein comparable to that of egg" and there is such work but again it it not set out like a breakfast cereal pack. In the Howarth et.al's (2008) paper the give you figures for the accumulation for various amino acids in wheat. Howarth et. al. don't however give a graph of grain nitrogen versus time compared to carbohydrate. That knowledge is something that there is lots of published data on for cereal crops so these make good models (e.g. Ejeta, G; Axtell,J.D. (1987) Dry-matter accumulation and carbohydrate composition in developing normal- and high-lysine sorghum grain. J. Agric. Food Chem., 35 (6): 981–985, DOI: 10.1021/jf00078a029).

I agree there it would be great to have all this data package up and have the science of finch biology wrapped up in a convenient package so that we can all have evidence based knowledge but unfortunately for most of us this is a hobby so this is not going to happen unless someone is paid to do it or AFF gets some truly obsessive type to do it for free.