Does the Sustainable Aviculture Network (SAN) still exist?

[Myzomela]

The problem is that people that have the rarer than rare bird don't want there business printed on a survey.

...even if it's anonymous?!?!

Myzomela, i'm one of those with the rearer types of natives,when i first joined this forum i introduced myself and stated that i bred the rearer types of Aussie finches and was hounded by members to state what i had(to be perfectly honest i sh%t myself) As i have had my previous collection stolen.
In the end i gave in and stated what i had but it has been a god sent as i now know and have spoken to around 5 breeders in different states that are breeding the same species and are willing to exchange birds down the track for new blood.
So with this forum,behind the screens there is sustainable aviculture going on,me being one and how many more i don't know but the private message system is a great tool.
I for one wouldnt need to join any SAN as i have found my contacts myself through this forum. Cheers Craig

That's great Craig and I'm glad the AFF has been a way to contact people with similar species. In reality this is happening for several rare species and the cooperation within the finch community has mostly been great- except perhaps with the green strawbs, but that's another story!

However, I still don't understand why people are reluctant to reply to these surveys. If we have a political group willing to raise awareness of which species need work, and you can contribute anonymously, then why not contribute? No one is asking you to reveal your identity, or forcing you to join a species management group with people you may not wish to be involved with. Is it paranoia? Laziness/Apathy? Or am I just incredibly naive???????????

[lestra]

I just read a article (no idea how accurate it is), that only 5 breeders in Australia can honestly say they have true normal gouldians with no mutations recessive genes. This is alarming to me as what happens when there are no true normals left.

[Tiaris]

I doubt that anyone could possibly know with any degree of certainty how many Gouldian breeders definitely have non mutant birds but I confidently reckon there would be far more than 5 with them. The truth is that many people honestly believe they have non split normals and can go on breeding them for many years without knowing they actually do have some splits among their stock and are hence continuing producing more splits without knowing it.

[Netsurfer]

I just read a article (no idea how accurate it is), that only 5 breeders in Australia can honestly say they have true normal gouldians with no mutations recessive genes. This is alarming to me as what happens when there are no true normals left.

No need to add anything else to your comment! We're heading in the same direction as Europe is, in a few years time we will not be able to recognize the species because of the crossing and out-crossing just to obtain some mutations. Almost certainly some of these "mutations" will slowly but surely start oozing into the wild. The sooner we realize what mutation breeding is doing to Aviculture the better!

[Tiaris]

I understand your very legitimate concern regarding the purity of normal stocks of this (& other) species, but I don't understand what you mean by the species becoming unrecognisable by crossing & outcrossing to obtain mutations. Also, how do you believe these mutations will almost certainly ooze into wild stocks?

[E Orix]

It is nearly impossible to know how many people own genuine pure Gouldians.
I have 4 normal Black Headed Gouldians which are pure but even so I guess you can only call them 99.9% pure you never know
Its like the old saying you can be 100% sure of your mother but the father?? even thats debatable today.
This is for the Gouldian Mutation breeders,a sticker on my cars back window.
"Save the Gouldian from Mutation Pollution."
It was given to me at the Bendigo Bird Sale.

[vettepilot_6]

This is for the Gouldian Mutation breeders,a sticker on my cars back window.
"Save the Gouldian from Mutation Pollution."
It was given to me at the Bendigo Bird Sale.

Oh I like that...With whom do I get one of those?
Its usually not the fault of true mutation breeders but those who are coming into birds and know no better or are purely doing it for money...

[lestra]

I found a great PDF of birds in my local area, as far as I can tell none of them are even on the At Risk list (let me know if I am wrong).
http://www.frasercoast.qld.gov.au/c/doc ... upId=12430 takes a bit of scrolling to get to the finches.

I sooo want one of those Gouldian stickers. Going to speak to Wayne Tomorrow to find out if locally anyone has pure normals as mentioned in another thread I found out my boy is from a bloodline that occasionally throws white chests, though I got my Gould's as my kids wanted to learn about finches and breed and they are the hubbies favourite so easier to win him over, I still would like to know I am helping conservation. Mr 7 is soooo in love with his Gould's I will let him keep them but retire the pair from breeding and keep the young purely for my kids.

[Netsurfer]

I understand your very legitimate concern regarding the purity of normal stocks of this (& other) species, but I don't understand what you mean by the species becoming unrecognisable by crossing & outcrossing to obtain mutations. Also, how do you believe these mutations will almost certainly ooze into wild stocks?

When you go to Bird Markets in Europe there are birds that look like Zebras but there is a bit of Begalese in them, and they can be the size of a Canary. To obtain something like that you would have to cross Zebra to Begalese then the fertile hybrids to a Redheaded finch or a Java or something like that, and then maybe to out-cross back to Zebra. There was another bird, sold as a Zebra Finch but it was all red, like red as in a male Zeb's cheek patches, about the size of a Bengalese finch. There were also plenty of Parrot finch hybrids, bit of this bit of that, and maybe bit of something else. Also, I remember a guy wanting to create a Canary size Red Siskins by crossing and out-crossing. As for "How do you believe these mutations will almost certainly ooze into wild stocks?"
Well I trust you if that's gonna make you feel better, but let's be realistic people will do anything, condoning breeding mutations or hybrids too much, sooner or later will get to that point. I read somewhere someone saw mutants Gouldians in the wild. Mutation do not often appear in the wild. There was an albino if I recall exactly a Red-backed Wren in the wild also a yellow Black Cockatoo but that only appears once in 20 - 40 or 100 years.
By the way "Crossing" means as in crossing two different species and "Out-crossing" means pairing the young hybrids back to one of the parent specie.

[Myzomela]

Netsurfer,

I think you're getting ahead of yourself.

To obtain something like that you would have to cross Zebra to Begalese then the fertile hybrids to a Redheaded finch or a Java or something like that, and then maybe to out-cross back to Zebra

I seriously doubt that anyone could carry out such a series of crosses and even if they could the chances of producing a fertile bird would be virtually nil.
The zebras you describe can occur as pure zebras- the colour is a mutation eg the red zebra or other "phaeo" type, and the size is achieved through selective breeding.

This is very different to parrot finch hybrids- which occur due to poor management or misguided breeders or red siskin x canaries, which is how the red factor canary was developed hundreds of years ago. I haven't seen any evidence that either of these hybrids are threatening the purity of wild flocks.

There was an albino if I recall exactly a Red-backed Wren in the wild also a yellow Black Cockatoo but that only appears once in 20 - 40 or 100 years.

These are all naturally occurring mutations- occurring in the wild! They have nothing to do with captive breeding or hybridising. Therefore, mutations themselves are natural variations that occur in nature. What is artificial is how we select for them in captivity and increase their frequency within a captive population, often to the extent that they swamp the gene pool.

I absolutely agree that we have to be very careful and maintain some genetically pure normal flocks of all our bird species.
I also agree there is no role for hybridising species just to transfer a colour mutation as is happening with frightening regularity in the parrot community.
But we need to understand the differences between mutations, hybrids, captive populations and wild flocks and keep it all in perspective.