Does the Sustainable Aviculture Network (SAN) still exist?

[GregH]

And just to add fuel to the fire:
from Feathered Flyer UK.
If you are impressed by the yellow mutation of the cut-throat then you can introgress the character into the red-headed finch. Sinedel (1986) mentions this was the same method that was used to move the colour mutations between scaly to the rainbow lorikeets.

At least in the case of cut-throats and red-headed finches it seems that hybrids form a substantial part of the wild population where they over-lap according to Tarboton so their distinct specific designation is moot. In Australia we commonly see intergrades between rosella species. Given the imperilled gene-pool of the of the redheaded finch in Australia a touch of cut-throat might just be be what is needed to save it rather than destroy it.

Is hybridisation harmful to genetic integrity? There is no correct answer as each aviculturist's goals are subjective, not objective - nature intends nothing but it is a fact that only the fittest survive. As was demonstrated recently in mimetic South American butterflies, the capacity to be able to introgess colour pattern from "unrelated" species through hybridisation can be actively selected for because it is desirable in some circumstances. The creation of novelty through mutation, hybridisation and shifts in gene frequencies in population occur over time and allows a species to adapt and survive. Do the most "pure" of aviculturists bemoan the fact that Gouldians are no-longer the fragile tropical birds that they once were? I seriously doubt they do but show them a colour mutation and it's rejected. If the yellow-headed mutation had shown up first in the aviary rather than the field would it too be despised? I'm sure aviculturists will break up into the usual camps of mutant-lovers and purists over this too. So is preserving diversity OK only if the allele occurs spontaneously and becomes fixed in natural populations in the period 1800-2012? I don't have an answer for this but I'm sure everyone has an opinion.

[Craig52]

The problem is that people that have the rarer than rare bird don't want there business printed on a survey.

...even if it's anonymous?!?!

That's great Craig and I'm glad the AFF has been a way to contact people with similar species. In reality this is happening for several rare species and the cooperation within the finch community has mostly been great- except perhaps with the green strawbs, but that's another story!

However, I still don't understand why people are reluctant to reply to these surveys. If we have a political group willing to raise awareness of which species need work, and you can contribute anonymously, then why not contribute? No one is asking you to reveal your identity, or forcing you to join a species management group with people you may not wish to be involved with. Is it paranoia? Laziness/Apathy? Or am I just incredibly naive???????????

Myzomela, as i said in my last post,'my last collection was stolen'so if you want to call me paranoid you are absolutly correct,lazy,no just very cautious as once bitten twice shy.
Its never anonymous filling in surveys as those paper trails pass many eyes,some for the good of the survey and some not so good.
Anyhow,this is my personal opinion and if others disagree,then so be it as it all comes down to 'privacy to me. Craig

[Netsurfer]

Netsurfer,

I think you're getting ahead of yourself.

I seriously doubt that anyone could carry out such a series of crosses and even if they could the chances of producing a fertile bird would be virtually nil.
The zebras you describe can occur as pure zebras- the colour is a mutation eg the red zebra or other "phaeo" type, and the size is achieved through selective breeding. This is very different to parrot finch hybrids- which occur due to poor management or misguided breeders or red siskin x canaries, which is how the red factor canary was developed hundreds of years ago. I haven't seen any evidence that either of these hybrids are threatening the purity of wild flocks.

Myzomela, here we go again the fancy words "Selective breeding" not a nice word everyone who ever tried to play with color or song or hybridizing uses those words. But in reality only god knows what they do, and obtaining a fertile hybrid for most species we keep, the word is not "impossible" the word is "what are the odds". You may have heard of a hybrid of King Parrot and I think it was Cockatoo (or a Galah). The scientists said it was impossible, but there you are! There were hybrids (according to one of the British books) between a Canary and a Indigo Buntings also a Madagascar Red Fody and a Canary. Some years ago I had an embryo in an egg while keeping a spare Grenadier Weaver with a female Canary, and that happened on two occasions but they died very early in development, I even spoke to an avian Vet about it here in Sydney, so Myzomela nothing is impossible the odds may not be in our favor.

These are all naturally occurring mutations- occurring in the wild! They have nothing to do with captive breeding or hybridising. Therefore, mutations themselves are natural variations that occur in nature. What is artificial is how we select for them in captivity and increase their frequency within a captive population, often to the extent that they swamp the gene pool.

That's the problem, should we do that at all or should we look after and enjoy the wild species? And along the way preserve what's left in the wild. There's no doubt, some of those mutations are stunningly pretty and most of the young half-wits (that's including me years ago) when I first saw the agate and isabel Redpolls, Greenfinches and European Siskins I was overwhelmed with "must have". Anyhow, I'm being a little bit "perfectionist" if that's the word but obviously in reality that's not gonna happen people will continue doing what they like.

As was demonstrated recently in mimetic South American butterflies, the capacity to be able to introgess colour pattern from "unrelated" species through hybridisation has been actively selected for because it is desirable in this circumstance. The creation of novelty through mutation, hybridisation and shifts in gene frequencies in population occur over time and allow a species to adapt and survive.

GregH, sure but that happens over thousands of years and not virtually over night as it's happening in Aviculture. Who are we to interfere?

[Myzomela]

Netsurfer,

I understand where you are coming from but again all the examples you mentioned are extreme and none of the extreme hybrids are fertile. If they are, then this implies a very close genetic relationship, a recent divergence of one species from another or from a common ancestor. Greg's example of the cut-throat/red headed finch hybrids in the wild typifies this.

The fact that your grenadier weaver x canary embryos died early in development just supports this. If you managed to hatch hybrid chicks, which were themselves fertile, then yes I would totally agree we could have a problem.

I don't understand what you mean by "selective breeding" being a fancy word. It just means that out of a group of birds, you select the ones exhibiting the features you deem desirable in a species to breed your next generation to try to fix or improve these features. This occurs in all forms of aviculture and technically you are right in that it is not "natural" because we tend to focus on features which please us such as colour and size rather than perhaps maintaining the natural variation that exists within species.
It in no way implies or encourages the use of hybrids to do this.

What is wrong and what is right in these circumstances depends on our individual values and the values and expectations of the avicultural community and society at large.
We will be judged in the future by the decisions and actions we take now.

[Myzomela]

Greg, as usual you have given us much food for thought.
Thanks

[Myzomela]

Myzomela, as i said in my last post,'my last collection was stolen'so if you want to call me paranoid you are absolutly correct,lazy,no just very cautious as once bitten twice shy.
Myzomela, as i said in my last post,'my last collection was stolen'so if you want to call me paranoid you are absolutly correct,lazy,no just very cautious as once bitten twice shy.
Its never anonymous filling in surveys as those paper trails pass many eyes,some for the good of the survey and some not so good.
Anyhow,this is my personal opinion and if others disagree,then so be it as it all comes down to 'privacy to me. Craig

Fair enough !

[Netsurfer]

Netsurfer,

I understand where you are coming from but again all the examples you mentioned are extreme and none of the extreme hybrids are fertile. If they are, then this implies a very close genetic relationship, a recent divergence of one species from another or from a common ancestor. Greg's example of the cut-throat/red headed finch hybrids in the wild typifies this.

The fact that your grenadier weaver x canary embryos died early in development just supports this. If you managed to hatch hybrid chicks, which were themselves fertile, then yes I would totally agree we could have a problem.

I don't understand what you mean by "selective breeding" being a fancy word. It just means that out of a group of birds, you select the ones exhibiting the features you deem desirable in a species to breed your next generation to try to fix or improve these features. This occurs in all forms of aviculture and technically you are right in that it is not "natural" because we tend to focus on features which please us such as colour and size rather than perhaps maintaining the natural variation that exists within species.
It in no way implies or encourages the use of hybrids to do this.

What is wrong and what is right in these circumstances depends on our individual values and the values and expectations of the avicultural community and society at large.
We will be judged in the future by the decisions and actions we take now.

That sounds good to me, the Avicultural Society here in Australia is probably the best in the world when it comes to not condoning Hybrids and Mutations but sadly over the past 10 years these are slowly creeping up in availability. Especially the Parrot Finches with the Sea-green and Pieds. In 1995 I haven't seen any Gouldian, Parrot Finches or other Finch Mutatios except for the Zebras, Javas and Bengalese. I've been with the Queensland Finch Society for 25 years and for as long I can remember they have always been against the Hybridizing but mutations are establishing fast and I guess are here to stay and nothing is gonna stop that, especially so with the captive Parrot breeding.
In Avicultural Community, most say "mutations No,No" but the moment they get their hands on some of the more expensive mutation there's nothing stopping them. When I got a split-lutino Greenfinch hen I bred several clutches the first year and took the advice of one the well know breeders and stopped the following year! Well, "may we say" we'll be judged!

[GregH]

Don't write off the future yet Netsurfer. Routine Marker Assisted Selection (MAS) techniques are already the mainstay of professional breeding programs for crops and I suspect for many animal traits too. The Zebra finch genome has already been mapped so all the tools are developed to introduce this technology to into aviculture too. Yes it's expensive but it it is not so expensive that breeders don't already spend $16 to determine the sex of a bird or look for viruses. The simple recessives that hide in phenotypically normal populations (like split white breasted Gouldians) can quickly be detected and eliminated through selective breeding programs. These for of tests used to cost thousands and are now down to about $30 once the genes have been identifies and you send the samples off to commercial labs. The time will come when robust and foolproof devices will be on the market within the next 20 years which will allow aviculturist to do this at home for less than a dollar per gene but you'll really have to understand genetics then. So will you eliminate the cold-tolerant Gouldian mutations from your collection then?

[vettepilot_6]

So will you eliminate the cold-tolerant Gouldian mutations from your collection then?

Gouldians have always been cold tolerant...they are living in area that is prone to major temperature extremes including very cold weather....think you will find it is better husbandry that is keeping them alive in colder areas...besides the cold isnt the problem its drafts.

[spanna]

So will you eliminate the cold-tolerant Gouldian mutations from your collection then?

Gouldians have always been cold tolerant...they are living in area that is prone to major temperature extremes including very cold weather....think you will find it is better husbandry that is keeping them alive in colder areas...besides the cold isnt the problem its drafts.

True, but haven't gouldians evolved to lose their downy feathers? To me that is the response to a very hot dessert environment. As you say though, in an aviary environ, cold isn't their enemy, only drafts. I don't doubt though, if some wild caught gouldians were put in Canberra, most wouldn't make it!!