Does the Sustainable Aviculture Network (SAN) still exist?

[Myzomela]

The simple recessives that hide in phenotypically normal populations (like split white breasted Gouldians) can quickly be detected and eliminated through selective breeding programs.

I have heard this comment made often Greg.

The only problem I have with it is this.

If you have a relatively small population of birds to begin with, by the time you eliminate all mutant and split birds, your effective population of pure wild-type stock is much reduced. The genetic variability of this population is reduced. The probability of inbreeding depression- reduced fertility, disease resistance and longevity amongst others- is greatly increased and the viability of the population or species as a whole may be compromised.

So what I am concerned about is that we need to effectively have a much larger population of a species which contains colour mutations than one which is just composed of "normals" if we aim to save the species in its wild-type form. There is nothing wrong with this, so long as we are aware of it when monitoring species numbers in captivity and deciding when they are dropping to dangerously low levels.

[Tiaris]

Precisely. The idea of test-mating birds to recessive mutation birds to identify the existence or absence of split genes will invariably produce more split and mutation birds before any attempt is made to breed normals, thus exascerbating the smaller proportion of normal genotype birds in the captive population. 2 steps backwards, then one forward after the peak breeding age of the identified normal stock.

[iaos]

Rather than test mate with the various recessive mutations, wouldn't the best/easiest way to check would be to line/inbreed every 3rd generation or so to see what pops up?

[Tiaris]

Even if you did this and your stock included 50% splits, the chances of mating a split to split are only 25%, then the chance of them producing mutation colour even if you luckily jagged 2 splits would be 25% so you could not be certain that all normal looking young from such a venture would give any certainty of anything at all apart from closer related stock via inbreeding.

[vettepilot_6]

So will you eliminate the cold-tolerant Gouldian mutations from your collection then?

Gouldians have always been cold tolerant...they are living in area that is prone to major temperature extremes including very cold weather....think you will find it is better husbandry that is keeping them alive in colder areas...besides the cold isnt the problem its drafts.

True, but haven't gouldians evolved to lose their downy feathers? To me that is the response to a very hot dessert environment. As you say though, in an aviary environ, cold isn't their enemy, only drafts. I don't doubt though, if some wild caught gouldians were put in Canberra, most wouldn't make it!!

True but that goes to show only the most healthy survive not because they were mutated into cold conditions (they still dont have their down feathers even now)they survived being shipped to England etc and eventually bred over there again as normals not because of having genes been specific for cold....

[spanna]

Precisely. The idea of test-mating birds to recessive mutation birds to identify the existence or absence of split genes will invariably produce more split and mutation birds before any attempt is made to breed normals, thus exascerbating the smaller proportion of normal genotype birds in the captive population. 2 steps backwards, then one forward after the peak breeding age of the identified normal stock.

As someone who is planning on doing exactly this (you may or may not have been aware) with gouldians, I have to ask what alternatives there are? I have been searching for "normal" gouldians for years, and so far have only sourced 1 pair that appear to be so. Since we cannot obtain wild caught gouldians, and can only take other breeders word on whether or not their birds are "normal" (and sometimes they may not even know they have hidden recessive genes), is there another way to obtain normal birds? Do I just go along and continue unwittingly producing splits, or do I test mate my birds, sell them knowingly as possible splits, splits or mutants, and identify the exact genomes carried by each bird, as a foundation for my continued long term breeding of normal gouldians?

I understand that producing more splits is undesirable, but like I have said, in the absence of wild caught birds, what other option is there?

So far, I have 2 hens, one YHPB possible split WB, one BH(yellow tipped beak)PB possible split WB, each of which are mated with RHPB cocks. They were very slow to partner up this season, and I have few young on the perch, but the YH hen with her RH cock have 5 young in the nest now. I plan to take some of these young, pair them with YHWC(maybe even YB) birds next year, and see what mutations arise. This should give me a reasonable indication of what birds are split to what. The birds that are deemed "normal" shall then be paired up with further "normal" birds from a pair of YHPBGB gouldians I have in a separate aviary, and these shall form the basis of my future breeding stock.

[desertbirds]

Send a PM Spanna and i can put you onto normal Goulds (orange and red) I believe Tiaris may have normal blacks.

[Tiaris]

I have been breeding "normal" Black-headed Gouldians for the past 7 years. This has been interupted by the intermittent production of a few white-breasted young birds. Whenever this has occurred I dispose of the white-breasteds, their parents and siblings (as known splits & possible splits) and continue to mate what I consider to be the best normal looking young birds to their best unrelated mating options. By doing this I haven't produced any white-breasted young for the past 3 years but I know of 2 people who have bought young from me who have produced some white-breasted young from my birds in this same period. I don't doubt that my normal looking birds may still contain some splits and I will never be able to be truly certain that I have culled all white-breasted genes from my flock. I would rather that this was not the case and will continue to cull any mutant birds and their relatives as I prefer the appearance of purple-breasted birds, however I am not especially disappointed as I continue to improve on the colour, posture, size and vigour of my Gouldians each season and gain a great deal of pleasure from doing so.

[spanna]

I understand that culling the birds producing mutations is an option, and I have nothing against that, but in my mind, spending a little bit of time figuring out which birds are most likely pure seems more up my ally, rather than selling all my young as possible splits. It's just my personal preference, and seems a good foundation for my future breeding pairs.

I have seen many a pic of your gouldians, and see them as excellent in size, stature and colour. If I were over east, I don't doubt I would have by now contacted you for some of your birds! But as someone who doesn't personally fancy mutations, I would prefer to have none, splits or coloured, in my collection. My plan to remove mutations from my birds will begin with doing just that, over a period of a number of years, to establish a few different bloodlines, and by the time I have aviaries the size of yours (a man can dream) I will be selecting these normal goulds for size, colour and vigour also.

[Tiaris]

I don't think that test-mating is necessarily the wrong way to go. I just wanted to paint a more complete picture. To take this further, when can you be sure that a bird is not split to a recessive mutation? When it has produced say 2 consecutive clutches of non white-breasted birds perhaps? Is this then conclusive that the parent is not a split? Do you then test mate for another couple of clutches each with an Australian Yellow mate and then again with a Blue Gouldian to be sure(?) of no split recessive genes in one bird? At the end of all this you will have produced a large number of split mutant birds to be confident (but still not 100% certain) that one bird is a normal genotype. And how useful is this bird then?