Mealworm pupae - nutritional value??

[Tiaris]

Has anyone seen any reliable info confirming the relative nutritional value of mealworm pupae compared to the larval (mealworm) stage?
To me it seems rational to expect that at the pupal stage they are undergoing a rapid and significant transformation which must be fuelled by various growth/development enzymes, so this must have a measurable affect on their nutritional composition when compared to larvae.
Protein, Ca:P ratio, fat, etc. ???
I know that many species, particularly Weavers, song sparrows & many softbills show a preference for pupae. I'm wondering if its just their softness as with freshly moulted white mealies which is the main attraction, or is there improved nutrition contained within?
Any experience/facts/nutritional breakdowns which I can't find will be appreciated.

[Danny]

Its important to somewhat ignore the exact values are and look at them comparatively as different testing methods will give variations.
From my reptile book
mealworms prot 52.7 % DM, fat 32.8 %DM, Ca:P 1:10
Mealworm beetles prot 63.7 , fat 18.4, Ca:p 1:11
Mealworm pupae prot 54.6. fat 30.8, Ca:P 1:10

What does it mean !!!! - they all suck.

[natamambo]

Danny, to what extent is the mealies diet playing a factor? Based on your advice here and elsewhere I have been raising my mealies on pollard, not bran - does this change the equation? coz that's what I've always understood you to be saying.

[Tiaris]

Thanks for that Danny. No significant difference then. Maybe the pale freshly hatched beetles could be best if the birds will eat them - softbills perhaps, finches probably not. I too would be interested in any changes in pollard-reared as well as other gut-loaded insects (insectivore mix,finch softfood,etc.) compared to the standard bug.

[Danny]

Danny, to what extent is the mealies diet playing a factor? Based on your advice here and elsewhere I have been raising my mealies on pollard, not bran - does this change the equation? coz that's what I've always understood you to be saying.

pollard will still result in a calcium poor dietary item. Bran, containing phytates will bind calcium, resulting in a calclium poorer diet but no impact on other factors

[GP Finches]

It is interesting that the information reproduced on calcium deficiency in birds via feeding mealworms on grain is the similar information I have discovered in humans. This topic of phytic acid and antinutriants is very important to me as a health practitioner. Seeds are different to grains in many ways. It makes you wonder why our western diet is heavily based on grains and dairy when the evidence is clear on the delitarious effects of these "foods" in humans. This includes inflamatory disorders, osteoporosis, ricketts, inflamotory disorders, mental disorders and so on.

The big question here is, what is a finch diet. The same question can be asked for humans. Can we reproduce a diet in captivity that is genetically congruent with the animal in question.

[E Orix]

Danny
With my very basic knowledge in dietry needs I thought calcium was needed for strong bones and for eggs shell production.
My Weavers feed their young on a huge amount of Mealworms.
In all the years of keeping Weavers I have not once had an egg bound female and not one deformed chick(even with the possibility of inbreeding)
Yet I hear so many adverse comments about mealworms,some saying limit them to 5 per day, some morons say boil them before feeding them out.
Have any of these findings actually been from actual trials on birds or just supposition.
I would conceed that dietry control is required across the board for birds kept in cages where you must provide a balanced diet but no one differentiates when it comes to an aviary set up like most Australains use.
Another area is the total preoccupation with regard calcium, I know birds need calcium I also know the birds need other chemicals to aide in the body absorbing calcium. I also have the opinion that too many people over do the calcium feeding and forget about the dietry balance needed for that absorbtion.
I would really like your opinion and may be Myzo as well.

[Danny]

Danny
With my very basic knowledge in dietry needs I thought calcium was needed for strong bones and for eggs shell production.
My Weavers feed their young on a huge amount of Mealworms.
In all the years of keeping Weavers I have not once had an egg bound female and not one deformed chick(even with the possibility of inbreeding)
Yet I hear so many adverse comments about mealworms,some saying limit them to 5 per day, some morons say boil them before feeding them out.
Have any of these findings actually been from actual trials on birds or just supposition.
I would conceed that dietry control is required across the board for birds kept in cages where you must provide a balanced diet but no one differentiates when it comes to an aviary set up like most Australains use.
Another area is the total preoccupation with regard calcium, I know birds need calcium I also know the birds need other chemicals to aide in the body absorbing calcium. I also have the opinion that too many people over do the calcium feeding and forget about the dietry balance needed for that absorbtion.
I would really like your opinion and may be Myzo as well.

I fed lots of mealworms and don't limit the amount per bird. Birds like weavers and song sparrows seem to eat their bodyweight in them daily. They are not perfect but neither is anything else. The aim is to have an overall balanced diet - compensate in part B for the deficiencies of Part A, Part C compensates for deficiencies in part B. Some birds may only eat A and C so the diet needs to compensated differently. The proof is in the results. If what you are doing results in good chicks then somewhere along the line, knowingly or not you have reached some sort of nutritional balance for your birds. I think the preoccupation with calcium is because its the one deficiency that is extremely visible and its a crash and burn type issue. Its not like an amino acid deficiency that causes a few white flights and it will correct itself - you fledge with two broken legs and it will be noticed.

[E Orix]

Thank Danny
Your answer was what I was after.
My worry is with so much said on anti Mealworms, people would go off them and try and use a diet that maybe is too fatty etc.
There are other aspects with regard mealworms which people don't consider. The actual preditory side of the birds feeding,the actual skins are
far less digestable and can aide as a pipe cleaner once past the crop and finally the simple part the actual eating of the worm and getting every scrap from the skin case. I can watch my feed table from very close and once the young weavers and softbills leave the nest they follow the parents to the feed area. The female simply grabs a mealworm bites its head 3 or 4 time then into the chick. All she has done is killed it by crushing its head.

[Fincho162]

I'll jump on here too given I'm from a non-termite based "economy" as regards livefood.

We've fed mealies from day one and if anyone was going to see deleterious effects of feeding them it would be us!!! Never seen them despite many, many years of vet autopsies.
As Danny knows we are devotees of his in the correct feeding of the actual mealworms well before they get to the birds................deleterious effects of mealies............zzzzzzzzzzzzzz................wake me up before they go go!!!
The odd mealworm skin maybe but the actual contents of the worm......like EOrix says....(sort of )..."Tell em they're Dreamin!!"

Calcium ...agree in part with EOrix........the part being the use of water based calcium solutions where birds get it whether they want it or not........also never yet seen a male finch egg-bound. Add in increased water consumption on hotter days and how much calcium is too much???...........preening after a bath...........??
From studies when developing my own mix we found that when Gouldians are egg laying the females are rarely far from the dry combo mix I make....males flit in and take a few bits and pieces but hens are constant visitors. Why is this so 2-dogs?? Basically because of the demands made on the calcium reservoir when egg-laying and Gouldian hens do have the propensity to lay a hell of a lot of eggs in any given season!!!

There yee goeth ...me 2.3 cents worth of meaningless info.