Hybrids

[Stavros01]

Hi to all,

recently in Portugal as been opened a category for this type of birds, in shows.
I am not a fan of this and i think it is going to cause less pure birds and all the purpuse of the swos will be deturpeted, wish in my opinion is to show the best birds inside a specie.
My quaestion, however is if this hybrids are fertile or not, since we can start founding some diferente and unusual birds in the market. If they are not the problem dies here but, if they are not....



Regards
Gustavo

[Fincho162]

It really is a touchy subject Gustavo and with many of your Fringillid finches it must be a real worry given that they are so closely related the chances of fertile offspring would be very high - and no-one wants that to pollute your gene pool if they are put back with pure birds again - which seems to be your main concern.
Mules (sterile crosses) I guess are no threat but just the waste of the two pure species used to make them.

Here hybrids are a common way of trying to preserve rare foreign species.............some still frown at it but I have no problem with it..............however crossing native species is another matter...........especially as many Longtail, Parson & mask crosses are fertile........and as such pollute the original stem species.

I guess writing an article for your local bird clubs on the dangers of this would help alert the naive one to the inherent dangers of this practice...........maybe?

[Stavros01]

Well, i do not believe that one person would make te diference. It would be one against millions.
In Portugal, their is a lot of that who cross GoldFinches with canarys. The cross originates a very beautiful bird but the main importance in this cross is the singing of this hybrids. They have the most beautiful sing have ever heard.
But since i do not have this kind of birds, my main question was refering to the Erythrura species and if this hybrids became fertil or not.


Regards
Gustavo

[Fincho162]

Now I'm with you Stavros!!!
Can only speak about the few species we have here and the Red-faceXBlueface is definately a sterile cross............have seen them for sale as Peales PF some time ago but definately sterile...........a true "mule"'. Know that from bitter experience!!

Have been told that the BluefaceXTricolour is also sterile but cannot confirm that from direct experience.

With Gouldians I have no idea I'm afraid.

One of my concerns with the mule breeders is what actually happens to all the females from an ethical point of view..................

[Luís Lourenço]

Hi,

Some hybrids are beautiful birds and like Gustavo said, great singers.
I have a male european serin x canary hybrid and their song is truly amazing, is a mix between the songs of european serin, green singing finch and canary and in my opinion, is even better then goldfinch x canary hybrids. This male is fertile.
Besides that male I also have two more hybrids, a female european serin x canary and a female linnet x canary.
In my opinion is nothing wrong with a pontual hybridization to have specific features on the hybrid resulting from such crossing, like the song of canary x ohter fringillid hybrids.
What I think is wrong is using hybridization and polute the gene poll of certain species just to "improve" them for shows.
I know some cases of crossing long tails and parsons just to increse the size of Long tails and the same is done to forbes parrotfinch, using blue face porrot finches.
Even when the objective is pass mutations to related species or between subespecies, I dont like the ideia to breeding with fertile hybrids because the people that do that may sell the impure birds to inexperienced breeders that dont know the diference between an impure and a pure bird.
This happens with some Lonchuras, Amadinas, Poephilas (even the hybrids between parsons/longtails x maskes are fertile in some cases) and the Timor zebras.

Now I'm with you Stavros!!!
Can only speak about the few species we have here and the Red-faceXBlueface is definately a sterile cross............have seen them for sale as Peales PF some time ago but definately sterile...........a true "mule"'. Know that from bitter experience!!

Have been told that the BluefaceXTricolour is also sterile but cannot confirm that from direct experience.

With Gouldians I have no idea I'm afraid.

One of my concerns with the mule breeders is what actually happens to all the females from an ethical point of view..................

Fincho, one question: do you cross the male Red-faceXBlueface with a pure female (Red face or Blue face)?
If you only cross that male with the hybrid female is natural that the eggs were sterile, because females are sterile in the majority of the times.
In european serin x canary hybrids, for example, 90% of the males are fertile and only 10% of the females are fertile.

The BluefaceXTricolour hybrids are fertile, more often than the Red-faceXBlueface hybrids.

Gouldians dont produce fertile hybrids with any species as far as I know.

What actually happens to female hybrids? That is a pretty good question. In my case I keep them because is my duty, I breed them so it's my fault they exist.
What the other people do I dont know exactly but some breeders use them to fostering other finches.
But just to show how bad people are, some hybrid breeders kill them, even the males. Only have them to participate on shows and after that they kill the birds ...

[finchbreeder]

"Well, i do not believe that one person would make te diference. It would be one against millions."
Every avalance starts with one snow drop. In other words it is always worth trying. Because only by trying do we succeed. To give up without a fight is just too easy. This applies in the saving of any species in any circumstance. Never give up without a fight. Write that article, and submit it to every bird club/magazine you know of. Then write another and do the same. Someone has to start the avalance. Good luck.
LML

[djb78]

I would have to agree with finchbreeder on this as silence won't get anything done, there maybe heaps of people who agree with your opinion and are just waiting for someone to start the debate as they may also feel what can one person do against so many, all it would take is one finch club one judge from the shows to agree with your opinion and the ball has begun to roll. I won't get into the ethics of hybrids as everyone is of their own opinion and certain hybrids do have their place.

[Fincho162]

Hi Luis,

back before I knew any better we crossed Red face males with Blue face females and then put the resultant crossed females back to a pure Red face cock.................lots of eggs and zero fertility..............from a number of pairs.
The resultant crossed birds we tried in every possible combination just to try and prove that they were fertile..............tonnes of eggs ...........zero fertility................

For the record we gave the hybrids to a chap that had birds merely to look at - in fact his entire collection were males for that reason!!! Loved getting a call from him to buy all the nasty hens he had to buy as pairs just to keep the males!!!!! To each their own!!

[Dimar]

Hi guys,
in case you don't know, C.O.M. regulation (and therefore worldwide federations, associations and clubs belonging to it) doesn't admit intraspecific hybrids to shows, that's to say, for example, all Erythrura hybrids, all Poephila hybrids, all Agapornis hybrids and so on for every family of birds, cannot be entered on shows. This rule has been clearly made to preserve the purity of species, since most intraspecific hybrids are supposed to be fertile at some degree.

ciao
Dimar

[Luís Lourenço]

Hi Luis,

back before I knew any better we crossed Red face males with Blue face females and then put the resultant crossed females back to a pure Red face cock.................lots of eggs and zero fertility..............from a number of pairs.
The resultant crossed birds we tried in every possible combination just to try and prove that they were fertile..............tonnes of eggs ...........zero fertility................

For the record we gave the hybrids to a chap that had birds merely to look at - in fact his entire collection were males for that reason!!! Loved getting a call from him to buy all the nasty hens he had to buy as pairs just to keep the males!!!!! To each their own!!

Hi Fincho, in the majority of hybrid birds that may be fertile, only the homogametic sex is fertile. In birds, males are the homogametic sex (ZZ), while females are heterogametic (ZW).
I know a case of a breeder that have fertile Red-faceXBlueface hybrids.

Dimar, I know that C.O.M. doesn't admit intraspecific hybrids to shows, but I still see some Lonchura hybrids in shows in Portugal ...